please forgive james

35 responses so far ↓

• Marcus // December 8, 2008 at 10:48 am

  Friendship is not built on shared beliefs, though it can help. Friendship is built on trust, faith , love and many other things. Many people have the same beliefs and hate each other, while some have great differences of opinion but think their friendship is worth more than their differences like James Stewart and Henry Fonda.
  2. Rick did not antagonize, he embraced Alan.
  3. a)I will ask people to give Jesus a chance – a 60 day trial.
  3. b) I can write short blogs

• Matt Gambrell // December 8, 2008 at 10:54 am

  Boy, I guess I am confused here or maybe need to see more of the interview….seems like a christian bantering with a non-believer..pretty much what I have seen all along with christians since the 80’s. Alan Colmes almost seemed more cordial and inquisitive….not really in need of disarming. He was smiling and warm even touching Rick’s arm at one point. Alan was out numbered and even told he wasn’t liked by the other host in this interview and still remained calm.

  What if Rick Warren had sought out an area of need in Alan’s life..or found one of his hurts and offered assistance, support and love? That seems to be more in line with the gospel. This interview seems like old wineskins to me.

  Matt Gambrell

• Marcus // December 8, 2008 at 11:00 am

  In the book Beverly Hills Principal (available in the Book Cellar) the author, faced with a school sit in by students gives a great example of how to use empathy and understanding to disarm with love.

• Jonathan // December 8, 2008 at 12:56 pm

  This simply is not a realistic example of how these “interactions” go down. Although it’s a nice warm and fuzzy dialogue, it lacks the real world vibe.

  To answer your questions…
  1) They clearly started as friends and remainded that way throughout the dialogue. I doubt they will have any trouble departing as the same.
  2) He didnt need to disarm him. His questions were generic cue card stuff rather than the deep, intense, and confrontational inquisitions that are the norm in the real world.
  3) Lessons learned? I was reminded that the Message we carry with us about Jesus is heavy, eternal, and without parallel on the scale of significance. Such a message is bound to sting a bit. All we can do is carry this Message as Jesus did and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

• Grace Gambrell // December 8, 2008 at 1:41 pm

  I, too, found Rick Warren to be preachy and saying the same answers. What really bothered me is that he didn’t take the time to say, in love, HOW Jesus was so important. He only mentioned that He was a gift from God and we should receive it. If I were a non believer, I’m afraid I would have been turned off by his “know-it-all” approach…
  In love,
  Grace

• Beverly Chick // December 8, 2008 at 2:10 pm

  This series couldn’t have come at a more perfect time for me! I am currently facing two sitautions: 1) Going back to school at BSU next year where they hate Christians and 2) a situation at work where I am helping a fellow employee who is having a real tough time and I don’t know if she is a Christian.

  I have been asking the Lord and asking my friends in my Wednesday night Vineyard Focus Group what approach I might take in dealing with this co-worker without frightening her away with too much religiousity. The Lord told me just to “be her friend (for now)” and some friends at my Focus Group said to just tell her (when you sense that the time is right) that you (and the Focus Group) will pray for her. I waited for the right time–a time when she was crying and really hurting and then I used this exact approach. And it seemed to work! She really seemed comforted and just quietly listened to me without any argument.

  Another approach that I find that works really well with people who have a negative association with traditional Christianity and church is the approach that John Eldredge uses in his books, “Waking The Dead” and “Journey of Desire.” John Eldredge tells Christians to tell people that Christ came to set the captive free and to heal the broken-hearted. Not to judge, condemn and inflict a bunch of rules and commandments on them. The world has done a good job of destroying many people’s hearts until they are numb with pain and hurt and are just surviving.

  What I am learning in my study of the book “Journey of Desire” is that if God has put a passion into your heart to do something (for me it is art and teaching art) then that is how he will accomplish his purpose in your life. I shared this with my co-worker and it really seemed to reach her because she has been doing little else than just surviving and not even trying to find what purpose God may have for her.

  I really liked what I heard last Sunday (12/7) during the inverview time. I especially liked what that one man said–”Find the right bait and don’t forget that you have to catch them before you clean them.” I am seeing now that it is really is important to learn as much as you can about where the other person is coming from (and their culture) before you slam them with a bunch of advice. This co-worker of mine has made some really bad, self-destructive, bad decisions when trying to cope with her problems, but if I approached her in judgment and said, “REPENT because you are really sinning big time” I think this would only repel her. She knows that she is not making the best decisions for her life but she is at the point where she is depressed and has almost given up hope. I realize that I have to approach her with that in mind and let the Lord do the clean-up job. The change has to come from the inside first before evidence of it can be seen on the outside.

• katie // December 8, 2008 at 2:41 pm

  Bev.
  Be encouraged. I am back in college after 10 years away… and I have not felt, even once that “they hate Christians. You may find a expressions for dislike/distrust of Christianity – but I have not had one experience of someone finding out about my faith (and I am quite vocal) and being unkind or angry or …. well, anything. There have been some interesting discussions – my Social Work professor even opened the door for me to discuss the differences between Biblical Judeo-Christian ethics and the “religious-right” political christianity that is what most people have been offended or hurt by. It was invigorating and illuminating – several people have opened up to me for conversations about their lives. I haven’t earned the right to “speak into their lives” as we like to say, but am there, with a personal “judgement free zone” and by the way – the feeling that I am not talking to them with the goal and agenda of conversion. Rather, that i am interested in them simply because they exist and they matter.

  I know that Jesus said the world would hate us, and have definitely felt “foolish” in the eyes of the world. But when I am truly just loving and not judgemental, honest but not antagonistic, I have yet to be “attacked” or hated.

• katie // December 8, 2008 at 3:02 pm

  i’ve learned to :
  say “pissed off” – that is, to speak the language people speak. Christian-eze is useless to actually relate to people who don’t speak Christian-eze. seriously, when people see that we are human, not just christian – they are interested.

  …and aside from moments of rather politician like skirting of questions, i thought pastor warren held his own in this conversation. he was certainly more full of love than Hannity – that was no joke! I also thought, though that Alan Colmes was a good model of how to ask questions in a respectful, insightful way.

  altogether, though it feels rather like a hard-sell, i don’t know that 60 or 90 days of a “trial offer” on God is that bad an idea. I know a lot of people who have been moved and motivated to step a little closer to Christ by his “purpose” book.

  i don’t know, you guys, this didn’t have the feel of a legitimate conversation, what with the highly politicized environment and fox news and all, … i don’t suppose we have any videos of real people having legit conversations with others? probably not, because in the real world we don’t film ourselves “reaching out” and show it off. we just do it. and pray that God shows up to love on the folks we may bump up against.

• James // December 8, 2008 at 5:48 pm

  1)When two people of different views can exchange dialogue without one/both feeling threatened there’s a good chance that a measure of trust, no matter how small, has been established. Friendship may follow. The responsibility we bear as Christians is to be encouragers rather than detractors. Rick’s stance in the interview was responsible and Alan remained courteous and never engaged the role of detractor. It would seem to me that in a televised interview a Christian would need to remember the greater audience, and his responsibility to them as well.

  2)I believe Rick kept directing the focus of Alan’s questions back to Jesus himself. Alan would begin his questions with phrases like; what about? but! what about? Do you look differently upon?… all of which seemed bent on inviting Rick to make distinctions between believers and non believers. Instead his responses were ones like… I’m a bridge builder, Jesus came for everybody, everyone matters to God, I’m not the authority… Jesus is, I do not look differently on those people, We are all created in the image of God. There were no borderlines being stepped over, no propensity to pass sentence on what makes unbelievers different or whether they are going to make it to heaven.

  3) When an unbeliever asks me about Jesus, I’d best avoid making any self defensive or judgemental responses. Stay on point. Let Jesus speak though me about Himself.

  This is an excerpt from a poem…

  He stirred my heart, He cried, “Awake!”
  To join to Him, and war He wages
  “Cast off your earthly garments and take,
  My armor for the battle of ages.”

  “Put down the sword of thine own will
  Whose blade brings only injury!
  Run not ahead, but peace, be still
  And wait upon My strength for thee.”

  This war I lead for hearts of men
  Is ever waged beyond Earth’s bound
  Not by man’s will, nor might can bend
  Nor by his fair intention found…

  The strength, my strong arm can deliver
  The sword, which from my mouth proceeds
  Will crush the arrows in Satan’s quiver
  By which he made the captives bleed

  You my warriors, clad in truth
  Send I forth, by love’s annointing
  Call the nations’ old, and youth
  To the harvest, I’m appointing

  “The sword, My Word, you must extend
  The captives’ cords, to cut, untie
  But sword of judgement, til the end
  Is in My hand alone, to ply!”

  -lw

• Dennis // December 8, 2008 at 9:33 pm

  I liked the way Warren handled the questions from Colmes without antagonizing the questioner or compromising his core Christian beliefs. They both seemed to be practicing what I have heard described as “religious hospitality.” That is, in a religious discussion, each party treating the other as though he was a respected guest in his home.

  I enjoyed the comments of the panel in the 12/7 service. They we inspiring. However, they probably do not represent the broadest range of beliefs in the VCF membership.

  I personally know many people that have been turned away from The Church by people (yes, even VCF Boise people) with the attitude of “I know the real and only truths about religion and anyone who does not believe the ‘right’ way is a fool and will be going to hell.”

  In the past some of the things that have I heard are ant-Mormon, anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim and anti-gay…all in the extreme. They are often said in small group settings where persons making those comments feel they are among like-minded Christians (and they are almost never challenged). But the results of the presidential election seems to have brought forth a new wave of what I think are “non-Christian” comments by Vineyard members such as ”he is not a committed Christian”, “his mother wasn’t even an American”, etc.

  Most recently alarming to me is a supposedly funny story (so vile that I would not include it) forwarded by a Vineyard member that had the pilot telling the copilot that 56 million people would be happy he threw the Obamas and Oprah Winfrey out of the airplane. (And “If you are one of those 56 million please forward this email!!!”) I shutter to think that such messages, driven by the power and speed of email might even lead to the assignation of a President.

  I feel that such extreme views are in the minority. But they seem to many “outsiders” to represent the mainstream of evangelical beliefs because the “silent majority” is indeed silent when the extreme positions are presented.

  At the end of the 12/7 it was mentioned that Christians sometimes do more damage than good in sharing their version of the Christian message. But I’m sure that the Vineyard people I personally know that really needed to hear that part of the message did not think the message pertained to them

• cheri // December 8, 2008 at 10:03 pm

  God gives us freedom to follow him or not. He doesnt hate us when we dont, he waits patiently out of love for us. I think Rick Warren stood his ground, respected the difference of opinion and showed that he values others despite their different beliefs.

  its funny at times I catch my self thinking during some sermons “wow, I wish so and so was here, they really needed to hear that” then I am convicted…I am the one that needed to hear it, thats why God has me sitting there in the first place ~

• Josh // December 9, 2008 at 12:06 am

  1. Rick and Alan could part as friends because Pastor Warren didn’t share the bad news about rejecting Jesus Christ. The good news is really good because of the bad that precedes it. That was left completely out.

  2. Pastor Warren disarmed Alan by dodging the question and making a joke. Alan asked Pastor Warren 3 times what would happen if you didn’t believe in Jesus! The last response is the following:

  COLMES: What about — what does it say for all those people who do not accept Christ as their personal savior?

  WARREN: I’m saying that this is the perfect time to open their life, to give it a chance. I’d say give him a 60-day trial.

  That is appalling!! A 60 day trial. Totally avoiding the question. Sin is either paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross, or it’s paid for in Hell. I don’t like that message-hell that is– but that is the truth. It’s EASY to not be offensive if you do not tell someone the truth. It would be like a doctor who discovered one of his patients has cancer, that could be treated. But the doctor doesn’t want to upset his patient, so he lies and tells her it’s nothing. She goes home and continues to live her life while the cancer completely ravishes her body until she dies needlessly because all the doctor had to do was tell her the truth, and start the treatment.

  We have cancer. It is Sin. It was Sean Hannity, not Rick Warren who said this in part 2 of the interview that “All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God.”
  http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,461685,00.html
  Let’s love people so much that we won’t tell people the truth and they might end up in hell.

  3. What I learned from this:

  A. If I don’t want to offend someone, don’t tell them the truth. or…

  B. Tell them I love them, and care about them. Tell them that I am a wretched sinner just like them. But Jesus was crucified on the cross, and his blood can wash our sins away if…. we put our faith in Him. But if we don’t… we will pay for our own sins, on the day of judgement when God sends us to hell because our names are not written in the book of life.
  I don’t want to see that happen….Please, please, please, trust Jesus Christ. There is no other way by which we must be saved.

• Marcus // December 9, 2008 at 7:21 am

  “many people have shared about the hostility they face when talking about their faith….. when you go in trying to prove you’re right and someone else is wrong the walls of defense go up.”
  Rick was embracing of other faiths. At the same time he was clear there is only one saviour. yes this is the diffeence – Jesus is the only son of God, the only saviour.
  Yet Jesus himself broke down the barriers of religion, he healed the Greek woman, the Roman legionaire’s daughter – greeks and Romans were both pagans. He travelled through Samaria and counselled the Samaritan woman at the well. He was hostile to none.
  We win people’s hearts by winning their respect. We win their respect by respecting them. As Reggie said, you have to catch the fish before you gut it.
  Many times we, while professing Christianity,
  have been hostile to other faiths. We do nt respect them. Christainity has a terrible history with Jews and Moslems alike. Yet Jesus came on the foundation of years of scarifice and suffering of God’s chosen people. Abraham had two sons -Isaac and Ismael. God told Abraham he would bless his seed. he gave Isaac’s children Moses and he sent the Angel Gabriel to teach Mohammed.
  We fight among ourselves. I was shocked when I came to America that many Christians did not consider Catholics “Christians”. Yet despite much corruption and misunderstanding, who held the torch of Jesus for a thousand years, – the Catholic and the Orthodox churches.
  In Idaho I am equally shocked by the attitude of some towards Mormons. It struck me this morning that they have a parallel with the Samaritans. The Samaritans refused to give up their foreign wives when they came back from exile, they kept there own beliefs, yet were still of the Hebrew lineage. Yet one of the most well known parables is about the good Samaritan.
  To gain respect among non Christians and to change the world we have to unite as one body of Christ and proclaim through our actions that Jesus is Lord and saviour and we have to do so with the respect Jesus had for all men and women.respect all faiths, especially the three Abrahmic faiths.
  We have to go beyond these. We cannot embrace the peace words of the Dalai Lama when they are sent to us on the internet and deny his Buddhist faith as satanic at the same time. Buddha did not talk about God because the Indians already had hundreds of “gods”, that does not mean God did not inspire him. We cannot accept a philosopher like Socrates and deny a thinker like Bill Maher. we must tear down our walls first.
  We win people’s hearts by winning their respect. We win their respect by respecting them. As Reggie said, you have to catch the fish before you gut it.

• James // December 9, 2008 at 7:23 am

  It’s a blessing being able to read the comments of others here and it challenges me to return to the scriptures afterward… because it’s there, and only there that I can learn the proper application of what God says versus what I’m doing and saying. Like all of us commenting here, even the Lord’s twelve disciples had different vantages toward sharing the gospel because of their differing personalities and uniqueness. Certainly some of us may be better suited to love the lost into the kingdom of God, while others find the gravity of final judgement the impetus that drives that same love. For me, loving produces the best beginning of dialogue. I used to charge ahead to the lake of fire before letting the Holy Spirit give me even the slightest sense of the person I was talking to. Certainly there’s a place for sharing about the finality of God’s eternal judgement. Only, it takes a greater measure of maturity, discernment and sense of timing to share. Holy Spirit lead us.

• Matt Gambrell // December 9, 2008 at 8:58 am

  Dennis,
  Thanks for you comments 4 up from mine. I also have received and heard comments that are similiar and they leave a pit in my stomach. I often feel very alone at the Vineyard (for reasons I cannot discuss due to posting guidlines) when I have confronted these sorts of comments and attacks. I feel way more encouraged now by your post. You made my day. God bless you!

  Matt Gambrell

• Ken // December 9, 2008 at 10:12 am

  I liked what Rick Warren said to Alan Colmes “Give Jesus a 60-day trial.” If someone will give Jesus a try, he won’t be disappointed! Warren kept pointing to what Jesus said rather than expressing his opinion.
  I believe that God has placed me in a unique situation in the fire community for His glory. He has orchestrated a position of influence, now it is incumbent on me to listen carefully to the Holy Spirit and let him guide me in what to say and when to say it. I’ve also noticed that He doesn’t send me into the “lion’s den” alone. He always puts another believer with me to supplement my strength.
  While Warren and Colmes may not part as friends, it appears that there is still mutual respect.

• Anonymous // December 9, 2008 at 11:06 am

  I’m not sure how anyone can give Jesus a 60 day trial unless they are only coming to him to see what they could get out of it. Jesus is Lord of all whether anyone accepts him or not. I can’t give Butch Otter a 60 day trial as governor. I don’t have to accept Butch Otter as my governor, he just is and I can obey what he puts in place for the state or I can rebel against him. Isn’t what we need to in regards to Christ is take a knee, surrender, repent, and stop railing against the throne of God by not believing and not following his commands? What if Colmes died in a car crash on the way home from the studio that night? Is it loving to have left as pals and not to have warned Alan about his state with God by refusing to bow to Jesus and receive him? The gospel of Jesus Christ is an offense and it is a scandal to a lost world that doesn’t want him. If we speak the words of scripture and declare Jesus is the only way we will be viewed as arrogant and hateful just as his early followers were. I think what is important though is that we bring the true gospel through self sacrificing love, service to our world and most importantly through tears of a broken spirit for them and bloody knees. Peace……

• katie // December 9, 2008 at 2:02 pm

  dennis,

  dittos

• LaWayne // December 9, 2008 at 3:55 pm

  Jesus did make a clear differentiation on heaven and hell, but he was able to do so in such a way that the “sinners” of his day could accept. He saved the fire and hailstone preaching, as it were, for the religious bigots whose very religiousity kept them from accepting what the “sinners” could clearly see.

  But that’s not even what really ticked him off – it was the fact that the ones who should have been leading the way into the kingdom instead stood in the way of others entering in. Jesus said that the millstone should go around the neck of those who hurt the little children, not the necks of those who were hurting.

  I was raised in a church environment that readily condemned anyone who believed differently than we did. Even questioning the why’s for what we did was deemed dangerous. I thank the Lord for that experience, because from it I learned that judging another’s heart is best left to God, because we humans are wrong more often than right in our judgment.

  I currently work in an office in which I am the only non-Mormon. I could preach the failures of the Mormon beliefs as some would suggest need to be done, but instead I try to operate in love. It’s interesting to see the opportunities I have had to be Christ to my co-workers, sometimes in something as simple as listening to a broken heart. I think it says a lot that a Mormon would choose the only non-Mormon person in the office to share her frustrations.

• Grace Gambrell // December 9, 2008 at 7:45 pm

  Anonymous,

  If Colmes died in a car crash, well, God is bigger than we think and, rest assured, He knows the heart. We do need to speak the truth; but our first and second commandments were to love (and all else would fall into place… paraphrased from, “all the laws and the prophets hang on these…”). I’m not saying we shouldn’t speak… But I am saying that He only is their salvation… Even Jesus didn’t tell people they were going to hell…
  Thanks,
  Grace

• Josh // December 9, 2008 at 8:04 pm

  Grace,

  I’m curious, What happens to a person in your view, if they admit they don’t believe in Jesus and then they die? Where do they go?

• Josh // December 9, 2008 at 8:16 pm

  Grace,

  By the way… Even if i grant that Jesus didn’t specifically say “you’re going to hell”, that misses the point. The fact is, he died so we don’t have to go to hell. That is the point of the cross. He loved us so much, even in our filthyness. I admit-I am a sinner- a wrotten on. I’m thankful that he paid for my sins so i don’t have to…

  Also go to Biblegateway.com and type in hell in the keyword search. The bible is chalk full of verses that talk about it. Since God (and by extension Jesus) is responsible for all of the Scripture, it seems that he indeed tell people they were going to hell.

  But, he loves them, and wants them to repent, but knows that some never will.

  josh

• Brandon // December 10, 2008 at 9:49 am

  Actually, Jesus did warn about hell quite a bit.

  Matthew 5:22
  But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca, ‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

  Mark 9:45
  And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

  Just a few there, in the name of being accurate to the Word.

  But I do think that hell is something most people don’t even think exists today, thus is perhaps more or less irrelevant in a “modern day” conversation (whatever that is). So, to make it relevant, when talking to non-believers, I try to focus more on their day to day struggles and hope that I can point them to their own internal complexities. Is there any hell worse than the fire that burns within a man or woman that needs something more?

  Hell is, after all, the thirst without a drop in sight, the hunger without a crumb for miles. A desert with no oasis. I think all of humanity, whether one believes in hell or not, knows that feeling. And Christ came to rescue us from that feeling NOW.

  The kingdom of God is now and not yet. So is hell. So if the not yet doesn’t connect with someone, I’ll focus on the now.

  Brandon

• Josh // December 10, 2008 at 12:18 pm

  Brandon,

  Good post. The only thing that I would add, is that since Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then we should bring the words of Jesus to the table of today’s conversations. If Jesus thought Hell was relevant, I don’t think it would be any less relevant 2000 years later.
  Besides if relevance is the yardstick by which we measure biblical truth, than most of the rest of the bible is going to fall by the wayside.

  Loving Jesus

  Josh

• Grace Gambrell // December 10, 2008 at 1:26 pm

  Josh,
  to respond to your question, I believe only God can judge the heart… It is not my place to say where they are going.
  Grace

• Brandon // December 10, 2008 at 1:34 pm

  Josh,

  True. What I’m saying is that, like Heaven, Hell is now, not just later. So, regardless of the afterlife, these truths are absolute and hold true now, right where we are. So, putting two and two together, that eternity is in our hearts, and that Christ is the fulfillment of our existence, yet I have to make a free will choice for him, I think the rest becomes simply obvious. Eternity without the one you were meant for — I can think of no worse fate.

  My point being, I don’t have to bring my non-believing friends to a revelation of eternal Hell. In fact, I can’t. All it is to them are stories and fairy tales and a ploy to get them to make a choice out of fear. And I can’t change that perspective, in fact, I don’t want to. All I want to do is plant those few seeds of words or actions that God has for me in that moment.

  Just like a believer’s testimony is more powerful than his knowledge of scripture, maybe I can’t convince them of an eternal fire, but there’s no denying the burns Hell has already left them.

  Brandon

• D // December 10, 2008 at 3:29 pm

  I so appreciate this discussion. It has really made me think! Help me out with this..If we don’t teach God’s law and justice, wrath or a literal Hell…how are you explaining the gospel of Christ’s death on the cross and resurrection to your friends and the world?

• Brandon // December 10, 2008 at 3:57 pm

  “If we don’t teach God’s law and justice, wrath or a literal Hell…”

  D,

  I try to bounce off of where people are at. Amazingly, most folks that I’ve talked to today have a great sense of the idea of justice, wrath against the wicked, and sometimes even hell. Not to say they are complete understandings, but I think it’s easier to comprehend law and justice than it is to comprehend God’s grace through Christ.

  Most non-believers I’ve talked to, once you get past the religious talk, have a bigger issue with Christianity offering what they see as a “free pass” to child molesters and others that they see as “unworthy”. Which I try to take and then put it on its head.

  I believe humans excellent orators in the ways of judgment and wrath; it’s the uncanny grace of God that truly drives us insane.

  So, yes, all need to understand the importance of what Christ’s death and resurrection really is, but if it only takes someone being delivered from the slice of Hell they have now instead of figuratively forcing them to see all of it before they accept Christ, isn’t that really easier?

  I don’t say this to condemn or judge any Christian who takes the hellfire approach. I am so at peace with who I am, who God is, and who Christ is, that I know that no matter what, everyone and everything is either willed or used by God. No matter what, He is supreme, and even if someone uses a method of sharing the Good News that I disagree with, if it’s praising Christ’s name, God will use it as He sees fit.

  Brandon

• Josh // December 10, 2008 at 6:55 pm

  Grace,

  I’m glad we can agree about only God being able to judge the heart. Let me rephrase the question: What do you say to the person who asks you: Where will I go when I die if I don’t believe in Jesus? The same question Alan Combes asked. We need to be able to give people loving truthful answers. Please please go this this link and watch this ER clip.

• Josh // December 10, 2008 at 7:04 pm

  Brandon,

  Good stuff once again!!!!

  I just took issue with one small thing you said about a person’s testimony being more powerful than their knowledge of scripture. Testimony is always powerful, and sometimes knowledge can be thought of as arrogant. However nothing, except God is more powerful than the Scripture.

  Hebrews 4:12: For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

  Remember the LDS claim that the Mormon Bible is true because after reading it they receive a burning in the bosom. With all due respect to the other side, this proves that testimony should be used, but it should used in conjunction with God’s word

  Your bro

  Josh

• Brandon // December 11, 2008 at 10:01 am

  Hey Josh!

  I would counter that, the Word itself is testimony written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. Not that I downplay its importance — by no means! But I believe a believer’s testimony, one who God is speaking through today (I can think of so many Celebrate Recovery leaders when I say this) is as powerful and meaningful, because it’s the same thing — God’s breath speaking through humble, broken and restored humanity.

  Brandon

• Brandon // December 11, 2008 at 10:07 am

  To follow up on that, because I realize what I last posted is an incomplete thought, the Word I believe is the tool to compare the words a believer is speaking, and ensure that my own humanity is not creating “interference” with the Spirit.

  Brandon

• Josh // December 11, 2008 at 9:45 pm

  Brandon,

  Thanks for the follow-up, especially the second one. If what you’re saying is that God’s Word is the standard of all truth, and the plumbline to see if what we say is true, I agree.

  I have a gift for misunderstanding.

  Thanks for the replies.

  josh

• Gwyneth // December 14, 2008 at 12:58 pm

  The essential point that came across to me in the interview was, what will your response to Jesus be? Jesus clearly stated that no one comes to the Father except by him, that he alone is the way, the truth and the life. This has always been a stumbling block to unbelievers and critics, no matter what their religious background or lack thereof. It will be the only question that matters when we face him on Judgement Day and whether we obeyed the Father in serving ‘the least of these.’ The Gospels clearly demonstrate that Jesus came for the sick, and they are the ones who had faith in him. When Jesus went to Matthew, the tax collector’s house, here’s what happened. Matt 9:10-13 “That night Matthew invited Jesus and his disciples to be his dinner guests, along with his fellow tax collectors and many other notorious sinners. The Pharisees were indignant. ‘Why does your teacher eat with such scum?’ they asked his disciples. When he heard this, Jesus replied, ‘Healthy people don’t need a doctor – sick people do.’ Then he added, ‘Now go and learn the meaning of the Scripture: ‘I want you to be merciful; I don’t want your sacrifices.’ For I have come to call sinners, not those who think they are already good enough.’” He refers to Micah 6:6-8 where the people were asking what they could do in repentance, and were wanting to offer sacrifices. Micah 8 says: “No, O people, the Lord has already told you what is good, and this is what he requires: to do what is right (’seek justice’ in other versions), to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.” I think this is the question for our own hearts. Have we acknowledged the sickness in our own lives or do we, like the religous people of the day, think we are good enough. ‘He who is forgiven much loves much’, Jesus said about the prostitute who anointed him with oil. The more we realize the depth of our need for Jesus, and obey his commands out of love and gratitude, the more his love will flow out of us in rivers to those who are also sick and need him desperately. That’s why I love the work of Celebrate Recovery.

• Lucas // December 15, 2008 at 11:45 am

  “But I’m sure that the Vineyard people I personally know that really needed to hear that part of the message did not think the message pertained to them” -Dennis
  There are two evangelical theories at work here. 1)Those that want to diagram a kind and gentle non-partisan evangelism
  2)Those that want to do and say the stuff, like Jonah, whether they have sympathy for the intended recipient or not.
  What the Sermon of 12/15 brought to the table is the fundamentals. Do you believe in God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit? Well, do ya, punk? I’ve been bringing these sorts of black-and-white questions to the table to friends and family lately. And, surprise! Those that are sick of ever-equivocal gray, welcome the black and white with open arms. I have a question: are you addicted to gray?
  My concept of how to evangelize has been significantly impacted by Steve Sjogren’s Conspiracy of Kindness. People piled on Steve for not being preachy enough. So, he “recanted” and encouraged preaching the gospel in combination with doing the stuff (works of kindness). Even if we are not 100% effective and taking the whole opportunity to reach out, God will provide the increase on our 5% or 10%. Sometimes it isn’t about the harvest it’s about tilling the soil, which is like stirring the pot. And, I do mean causing trouble. Dissension is bad in the church, unless the church needs churning. If you do nothing, there is zero potential. Let’s break a few jars of clay!

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