Comments on: An Honest Discussion http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/ Sun, 11 Jan 2009 19:00:19 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Marcus http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-398 Marcus Wed, 24 Dec 2008 01:01:41 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-398 My apologies to Katie for my remark on the 18th about Feminism. I did not mean or wish to imply anything against the fairer sex. Undoubtedly us men have treated women indescribably and inescusably badly throughout history and perhaps even more so today. If you read my other blogs you know I believe Romans 1:20 "His invisible nature is clearly seen in the things that are made, even his invisible power and Godhead. Therefore we are all in the image of God and should be respected as such. Men have acted with the heart of the enemy towards women and we all have to repent with tears. My comment was only meant towards the ideology that utilizes that resentment to sow hatred, break down the family, advocate the use of the word gender instead of sex, with the silent belief in only two sexes, male and female, but five genders - M, F, bi-sexual, transgender, and homosexual. Please forgive Marcus My apologies to Katie for my remark on the 18th about Feminism. I did not mean or wish to imply anything against the fairer sex. Undoubtedly us men have treated women indescribably and inescusably badly throughout history and perhaps even more so today. If you read my other blogs you know I believe Romans 1:20 “His invisible nature is clearly seen in the things that are made, even his invisible power and Godhead. Therefore we are all in the image of God and should be respected as such. Men have acted with the heart of the enemy towards women and we all have to repent with tears.
My comment was only meant towards the ideology that utilizes that resentment to sow hatred, break down the family, advocate the use of the word gender instead of sex, with the silent belief in only two sexes, male and female, but five genders – M, F, bi-sexual, transgender, and homosexual. Please forgive Marcus

]]> By: Matt Gambrell http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-377 Matt Gambrell Tue, 23 Dec 2008 16:45:30 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-377 Lucas, You are PRECIOUS, PRICELESS and LOVED by GOD. As iron sharpens iron, peace, Matt Lucas,
You are PRECIOUS, PRICELESS and LOVED by GOD.

As iron sharpens iron, peace,
Matt

]]> By: Lucas http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-365 Lucas Tue, 23 Dec 2008 04:01:33 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-365 Marcus>>D - I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved, One last note I like this topic. I like to think of our first birth and second birth (the born-again one) as both moments where we breathe the breath of life. We are "alive" before both events, but we receive an awakening to life that the "breath" of God infuses into us, first physical and second spiritual breath or wind (the Holy Spirit is often described like the wind). Gives new significance to breathing. And, I mean that literally. Marcus>>D – I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved,

One last note I like this topic. I like to think of our first birth and second birth (the born-again one) as both moments where we breathe the breath of life. We are “alive” before both events, but we receive an awakening to life that the “breath” of God infuses into us, first physical and second spiritual breath or wind (the Holy Spirit is often described like the wind). Gives new significance to breathing. And, I mean that literally.

]]> By: Lucas http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-364 Lucas Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:56:54 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-364 D- Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. \>> I love it and totally agree. However, my anti-heretic friends who work for websites like you site call the founder of "The Vineyard" , John Wimber, a heretic. Hence, my revulsion in the face of anti-heresy gone pharasaical. But, I personally have written a few things concerning heresy. It is a study too much left to "established" institutions of faith (like the Catholic church). And, some of these anti-heresy sites are run by faiths that do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as is usually taught at Vineyard. Matt Gambrell> As far as these Authors….I do hold the Word over what they are saying…and I don’t agree with everything in there…but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good.> I can't believe I agree with Matt Gambrell, but I do. Just kidding. D- Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. \>>
I love it and totally agree. However, my anti-heretic friends who work for websites like you site call the founder of “The Vineyard” , John Wimber, a heretic. Hence, my revulsion in the face of anti-heresy gone pharasaical. But, I personally have written a few things concerning heresy. It is a study too much left to “established” institutions of faith (like the Catholic church). And, some of these anti-heresy sites are run by faiths that do not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as is usually taught at Vineyard.
Matt Gambrell> As far as these Authors….I do hold the Word over what they are saying…and I don’t agree with everything in there…but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good.>
I can’t believe I agree with Matt Gambrell, but I do. Just kidding.

]]> By: Matt Gambrell http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-362 Matt Gambrell Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:06:10 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-362 D, I have seen many of these sites regarding the so called "false teaching" of the authors mentioned. To me there is a splitting of hairs. When I see the critiques, the critic is reading things into the writings and is taking everything literally. The Word of God itself is very poetic, figurative and symbolic. For instance in Matt. 24 v. 29-31...many people today read this and think that the Sun will literally be darkened and the moon will not give light and stars will literally fall from heaven. But this is written from the poetic of the O.T. profits. Christians of our era read this and thinkg these things are literally going to happen..but it is actually talking about a shift in National power and how Jesus dieing on the cross will effect this (ref. http://www.brow.on.ca/Articles/Wright.htm), not the apocolypse or second coming. So that being said the Word of God is always the same but you have to read it in its historical context and find the authors meaning in their lauguage. Jesus spoke in parables...you can't take the stories lirerally but look for the symbolic, figurative and poetic meanings. We in N. America read things very literally...but this is not what was meant by the original authors. We have to look at the historical context...which will always be the same...but over time man has interpreted to mean different. Same thing when modern day writers write symbolically, when we apply our very concrete type thinking to it it doesn't jive in our minds...but that could be because we are looking at and interpreting scripture incorrectly. So that is what I mean when I say the Word is to be read in context to it's day and time-historical. As far as these Authors....I do hold the Word over what they are saying...and I don't agree with everything in there...but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good. If the apostle Paul had his way....women would remain completely silent in church. His culture dictated that....but I have been blessed by women who have shared a Word, Prayer or song of Worship. The Holy Spirit it me lets me know that is ok. So this is the lense for which I look at these writings and authors. Matt D,
I have seen many of these sites regarding the so called “false teaching” of the authors mentioned. To me there is a splitting of hairs. When I see the critiques, the critic is reading things into the writings and is taking everything literally. The Word of God itself is very poetic, figurative and symbolic. For instance in Matt. 24 v. 29-31…many people today read this and think that the Sun will literally be darkened and the moon will not give light and stars will literally fall from heaven. But this is written from the poetic of the O.T. profits. Christians of our era read this and thinkg these things are literally going to happen..but it is actually talking about a shift in National power and how Jesus dieing on the cross will effect this (ref. http://www.brow.on.ca/Articles/Wright.htm), not the apocolypse or second coming.

So that being said the Word of God is always the same but you have to read it in its historical context and find the authors meaning in their lauguage. Jesus spoke in parables…you can’t take the stories lirerally but look for the symbolic, figurative and poetic meanings. We in N. America read things very literally…but this is not what was meant by the original authors. We have to look at the historical context…which will always be the same…but over time man has interpreted to mean different.

Same thing when modern day writers write symbolically, when we apply our very concrete type thinking to it it doesn’t jive in our minds…but that could be because we are looking at and interpreting scripture incorrectly.

So that is what I mean when I say the Word is to be read in context to it’s day and time-historical.

As far as these Authors….I do hold the Word over what they are saying…and I don’t agree with everything in there…but if when God breathes a word on a teacher it is still put throught that teachers filter. There good in there and some not so good. If the apostle Paul had his way….women would remain completely silent in church. His culture dictated that….but I have been blessed by women who have shared a Word, Prayer or song of Worship. The Holy Spirit it me lets me know that is ok. So this is the lense for which I look at these writings and authors.

Matt

]]> By: Marcus http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-360 Marcus Tue, 23 Dec 2008 00:41:33 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-360 D - I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved, however birth requires parents and it just seems logical to me that if rebirth requires Jesus and the Holy Spirit they act within the Trinity as masculine and feminine aspects of God's nature. If He made us in His image, male and female, then He must have a masculine and feminine aspect. Scripture has everything we need, but somrtimes it helps us understand more when someone expresses it in a story. For me the Shack gave a new perspective on the Trinity and I feel it helped me understand better. More important was the main message of the book, which is about repentance and forgivenss and moving on. D – I am just musing here on some ideas that I had when reading the Shack. Yes we are transformed not concieved, however birth requires parents and it just seems logical to me that if rebirth requires Jesus and the Holy Spirit they act within the Trinity as masculine and feminine aspects of God’s nature. If He made us in His image, male and female, then He must have a masculine and feminine aspect.
Scripture has everything we need, but somrtimes it helps us understand more when someone expresses it in a story. For me the Shack gave a new perspective on the Trinity and I feel it helped me understand better.
More important was the main message of the book, which is about repentance and forgivenss and moving on.

]]> By: D http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-359 D Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:50:43 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-359 Marcus Help me see where you are getting your statements. I'm trying to get this and maybe I'm slow. "We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent." I thought we we're transformed not conceived. Can you give me a verse where the Holy Spirit is referred to as the female parent? Is there a verse where God wants us to think of him as heavenly mother? Do we have the authority to say that is so? Where else besides The Shack is this taught? I guess I'm wondering why scripture is not sufficient for us any more? Why do we need these made up images? Marcus

Help me see where you are getting your statements. I’m trying to get this and maybe I’m slow. “We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent.” I thought we we’re transformed not conceived. Can you give me a verse where the Holy Spirit is referred to as the female parent? Is there a verse where God wants us to think of him as heavenly mother? Do we have the authority to say that is so? Where else besides The Shack is this taught? I guess I’m wondering why scripture is not sufficient for us any more? Why do we need these made up images?

]]> By: D http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-358 D Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:23:00 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-358 Like I said I would just use those sights as a springboard not an authoratative source which I figured you would do and did but oh well(you could easy find 100+ sites on the horror of the false teaching of these three) I had hoped you would do more matching up of scripture for yourself. My opinion is all three sources take us away from the word of God and create a new god that in the end forgives everybody and nobody is judged so we just need to do good things and God is pleased. Sadly, that is the god that has many all excited but I can't find him in the Bible, help me here! Lucas:"Don’t be fooled, yes. Whether we call everyone a heretic, another trap." Well first if by everyone you mean these three, Shack, Mclaren, Bell then ok i'm in on that, if you are addressing my post, well with the dozens of authors i love I'm not sure what your basis for "everyone" is. If like I think you are, you are referring to the given sources then see what I wrote above in this post..if something stinks we can be non judgemental and tolerant of these things but I think that shows a low regard for God's word. If there is a bull in the china shop I see no reason not to yell BULL! Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. How can anyone study the beauty of our salvation, the atonement, the propitiation, our total depravity, the passion of Christ, the wrath of God, and then look at the Shack or Mclaren and say it matches up? Really? Matt.."The Word has to be read in context to it’s day and time." So the meaning changes? Salvation is different now then 2,000 years ago? I 'm not sure where you are going with that. Your statement if it is in regards to presenting the same MEANING with contemporary examples would be another matter....I don't feel our faith is being challenged or pushed to go deeper by these things, I think our precious faith and gospel is being changed and rewritten so people like it better. Oh and Lucas I stand by my comment that if anything is planting a seed in our head that scripture is not God breathed, true every word of it, clear in it's meaning in regards to salvation we need to take those thoughts captive. ..peace(I know how thing read so I hope no anger, sarcasm, patronizing tone are heard in this. I think that has happened in other back in forths with others on this site. I love you guys and just want to share what is on my heart. Thanks :) Like I said I would just use those sights as a springboard not an authoratative source which I figured you would do and did but oh well(you could easy find 100+ sites on the horror of the false teaching of these three) I had hoped you would do more matching up of scripture for yourself. My opinion is all three sources take us away from the word of God and create a new god that in the end forgives everybody and nobody is judged so we just need to do good things and God is pleased. Sadly, that is the god that has many all excited but I can’t find him in the Bible, help me here! Lucas:”Don’t be fooled, yes. Whether we call everyone a heretic, another trap.” Well first if by everyone you mean these three, Shack, Mclaren, Bell then ok i’m in on that, if you are addressing my post, well with the dozens of authors i love I’m not sure what your basis for “everyone” is. If like I think you are, you are referring to the given sources then see what I wrote above in this post..if something stinks we can be non judgemental and tolerant of these things but I think that shows a low regard for God’s word. If there is a bull in the china shop I see no reason not to yell BULL! Scripture is clear on the pure devastation of false teaching which is why we should guard the word so carefully, like a jewel. I mean we are not nitpicking interperatation of the Bible here. We are talking about core, traditional, historic Christian beliefs being mocked. How can anyone study the beauty of our salvation, the atonement, the propitiation, our total depravity, the passion of Christ, the wrath of God, and then look at the Shack or Mclaren and say it matches up? Really? Matt..”The Word has to be read in context to it’s day and time.” So the meaning changes? Salvation is different now then 2,000 years ago? I ‘m not sure where you are going with that. Your statement if it is in regards to presenting the same MEANING with contemporary examples would be another matter….I don’t feel our faith is being challenged or pushed to go deeper by these things, I think our precious faith and gospel is being changed and rewritten so people like it better. Oh and Lucas I stand by my comment that if anything is planting a seed in our head that scripture is not God breathed, true every word of it, clear in it’s meaning in regards to salvation we need to take those thoughts captive. ..peace(I know how thing read so I hope no anger, sarcasm, patronizing tone are heard in this. I think that has happened in other back in forths with others on this site. I love you guys and just want to share what is on my heart. Thanks :)

]]> By: Marcus http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-357 Marcus Mon, 22 Dec 2008 22:15:17 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-357 We read the Shack at the beginning of this year in our Discipleship Group. At first I really thought it almost bizaare, but as we went through it and discussed it I gained a lot. It really makes you think and yes the main message is very solid - you have to love your brother and you can't go forward until you forgive and ultimately you have to face yourself, be transparent and repent. Don't get stuck in the past but live for now. The Trinity take the form of races who we as Caucasians and as Christians have often put down, the Holy Spirit is untraditionally feminine which makes me think yes, God made us in His image, male and female, yes God is not just our Heavenly Father but also our Heavenly Mother. We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent. Now that may be heretical, but then so was Galileo, Copernicus and printing the Bible in English or German. My thanks to Ian and Dory for choosing this book that really challenged me and deepened my faith. My thanks to our group for making it so inspiring. If it deepens you faith then what does it matter if someone thinks it is Heresy? We read the Shack at the beginning of this year in our Discipleship Group. At first I really thought it almost bizaare, but as we went through it and discussed it I gained a lot. It really makes you think and yes the main message is very solid – you have to love your brother and you can’t go forward until you forgive and ultimately you have to face yourself, be transparent and repent. Don’t get stuck in the past but live for now.
The Trinity take the form of races who we as Caucasians and as Christians have often put down, the Holy Spirit is untraditionally feminine which makes me think yes, God made us in His image, male and female, yes God is not just our Heavenly Father but also our Heavenly Mother. We are reborn through Jesus and the Holy Spirit, which suggests Jesus is the male parent and the Holy Spirit is the female parent. Now that may be heretical, but then so was Galileo, Copernicus and printing the Bible in English or German.
My thanks to Ian and Dory for choosing this book that really challenged me and deepened my faith. My thanks to our group for making it so inspiring. If it deepens you faith then what does it matter if someone thinks it is Heresy?

]]> By: Matt http://pleaseforgivejames.com/2008/12/17/honest-discussion/#comment-356 Matt Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:37:11 +0000 http://pleaseforgivejames.com/?p=96#comment-356 D, Just searched John Wimber on LighthouseTrails, and you guessed they think he is a heratic too. D,
Just searched John Wimber on LighthouseTrails, and you guessed they think he is a heratic too.

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