please forgive james

38 responses so far ↓

• Patrick // December 18, 2008 at 10:15 pm

  Here is a perfect example of what may happen when a evangelical is willing to try to build bridges of relationship with those who have a hostility to biblical truth. The following link is a CNN news clip about Pastor Rick Waren agreeing to pray the Inaugural Prayer for President elect Obama
  This does not mean we do not keep reaching out. For Jesus said “If the world hated me it will hate you also” I applaud Pastor Waren even though I know there are those in his church who will be upset or at the least confused by this.
  http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/12/17/obama.warren/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

• Dannielle Solberg // December 19, 2008 at 8:05 am

  I know that we are suppose to reach out and I don’t want to seem like I don’t what to. But is there a point at which we guard our hearts, or don’t become to deeply involved? How do we love a homosexual yet still maintain ourstance on the lifestyle? I used to wirk with a gay man I loved dearly and we got into the disscusion of gay marriage and I told him, in love, that I didn’t agree with it. However there came a point where he wanted advice about his boyfriend. I felt trapped to a point, not knowing where my “line” was. Does this make any sense?

• Bob Overstreet // December 19, 2008 at 10:39 am

  This is so relevant in my walk with God right now. I found “righteous anger” rising up in my throat every time another article was posted about “atheists” and “naturalists” being allowed to post anti-religious statements in a nativity scenes. I attended a “holiday” show at my children’s school where there were 50 plus menorahs and Kwanza posters and various pagan symbols celebrating the Winter Solstice and nothing about Jesus. Jesus, by name, was never mentioned during the whole performance. I am a proud member of AA and Jesus and our Father are rarely talked about as our Higher Power because so many people have been harmed by Christians pushing “religion” and rules and not faith.

  In response to this, God put a statement on my heart that has been impossible to ignore; “Love them.” What was that? Love them? They hate you and me and everything Jesus represents. “Love them,” he said again.

  What I learned from this insistent word from God was that these people either have been brutalized by Christian religion doctrine zealots or have never been exposed to the awesome love of our Father. They need my love and understanding. This has completely changed my world view. They do not need or deserve my protests and anger and fist shaking (or, I might say, my arrogance and superiority complex that I “know” God and they don’t. I am “saved” and they are not). I need to “become as” them, as Paul said.

  I have discussed this with other believers and some have a hard time seeing this viewpoint. Righteous indignation is sometimes too thick to see through. Also, in my continued membership in AA, I have had many people in non-AA recovery comment on why/how I can be involved in such a god-less organization.

  What I am hearing from God is that they need my prayers and love. Only through love can the world be changed. The Pharisees were the object of most of Jesus’ indignation. They were (are) the ones who put things of this world ahead of the Kingdom. I am not superior to the people who reject and are violently opposed to God because of my relationship with God. In fact, I believe that it is their brokenness that elevates them in God’s eye. They are the one lost sheep that the shepherd goes after. They are the ones that the Father welcomes back from their “lost-ness.” I need to be more like the shepherd and the father celebrating the son’s return. I need to walk with God and let his mercy and grace flow into my heart and allow it to overflow to those who are hurting around me.

  I am confessing my own brokenness. I am repenting of my own hard heartedness. I am asking God to give me more acceptance, more understanding and more love. May I continue to become more of the image of God that He put on me.

  I have a lot of introspection left to do, but I believe that I am finally making baby steps in the direction my Father wants me to go.

• Patrick // December 19, 2008 at 11:42 am

  No matter what sin we are talking about, believer or unbeliever, it helps me to keep the perspective or a loving parent who may disapprove or a child’s harmful behavior but still loves the child. This does not mean we as followers of Christ can or need to apologize for the truths we hold to.
  If I had a friend engaged in any sexual sin ask my advice I would (as lovingly as possible) tell them that they will never find true happiness in any relationship that is contrary to God’s plan for His creation. I think the more we make it clear that only true peace, happiness and contentment will be found by following God’s design for mankind, the more we are viewed as not condemning sin, but rather seeking to reconcile fallen man to his place of fellowship with his Creator. No parent ever won a wayward child back into their arms by shaming them or repeatedly telling them what a disappointment they are. I know mothers whose daughters are engaged in prostitution, they beg and plead with their children to leave this harmful and destructive behavior, yet no would would dare say they ate their children. I’m not sure why when christians make the same loving plea to the homosexual community we are called hateful.

• Patrick // December 19, 2008 at 11:46 am

  THat should read..”no one would dare say they hate their children”

• Brenna // December 19, 2008 at 11:48 am

  I have not really been criticized for reaching out to people. I could spout all this mumbo-jumbo talk about how God’s just blessed me with friends and believers around me who don’t care about things like that, but it wouldn’t be honest – at least, not completely.

  I do reach out to some . . . and by that, I mean a pretty select few. Those I deem ‘worthy’ in my head. This is just something God has been revealing to me this week (it all started with Haman from Esther . . . ) , and I am appalled at myself. How can I even begin to claim that some sins are worse than others, even on a subconscious level? God has never made a distinction that the person who tells little white fibs is less sinful or better than the druggie.

  This is something I will be working on from now on. I need to make myself open to be used by God, for whomever HE decides is worthy to be reached out to. I need to remember that I’m just change in His pocket.

• Grace Gambrell // December 19, 2008 at 5:18 pm

  To Native Americans:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for we stole your birthright by deceiving you with cheap beads, we caused you to be homeless in your own home, and we killed your families, even though our very own Chief instructed us to be a blessing to those in a land we did not know.

  To African Americans:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for we thought nothing of enslaving the image of God, pretending that what we gained during your sufferings was God’s blessing upon us, even though our Master told us there was neither Jew nor Greek – that all of us were equal in His eyes.

  To Japanese Americans:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans who forced you and your children into prison camps, even though our Leader instructed us to not live in fear.

  To Iraq, Afghanistan and those who have been tortured:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for we forced ourselves upon you and have wiped out entire generations with violence, even though our Commander warned us those who live by the sword would die this way, also.

  To American Soldiers:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for we lied to you and told you this war was about good and evil – that you were fighting for a just cause, even though our Leader in Command said we should make every effort to live in peace.

  To the families of American Soldiers:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for we couldn’t bear to face our greed and addictions and therefore sacrificed your children to idols, even though our General warned that we would not be able to serve two masters.

  To homosexuals:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for assuming that your choice for human love was less than our choice for human love, and for assuming that God was surprised by your choice, or our own, even though our Teacher told us He came not into the world to condemn the world.

  To women who have had abortions:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for thinking that if we shamed you, you would think you were being loved by a God whose love is everlasting, and “turn from your sin,” even though our God told us in advance that a mother’s love would not and could not be as strong as His love.

  To our neighbors South of the United States:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans, for we thought this priveledge of America was just ours and we weren’t supposed to share it, even though our Instructor taught us to welcome the stranger.

  To girls, boys, and women worldwide:
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans for funding human trafficking (for both labor and sex) with our dollars, purchases, and lust, even though our Leader told us it would be better for a heavy stone to be tied around our necks and for us to be pushed into the sea to drown, than to mislead one of these little ones.

  To Jesus,
  Please forgive us White and/or priveleged Christian Americans; for it is You we have rejected, displaced, beaten, tortured, raped and killed. Cleanse us and make us new. If anyone can redeem us, if anyone can heal us, if anyone can show us how to love, it is You. Please hear this humble cry!

• Patrick // December 19, 2008 at 10:03 pm

  This last post is very disturbing to me.
  Yes horrific injustices have been done to each of the groups mentioned, but they were not done by me or my parents or my grandparents. I can feel bad for the terrible treatment of people groups all over the world, but I was not the one who did them and to suggest I (or white people in general) carry the burden of blame is absolutely unjust and unwarranted and racist.
  As for “privileged christians” carrying the burden of blame, the church has been at the forefront of human rights issues for generations. If not for christians rising up against slavery who knows where this country would be today.
  If you feel personal guilt for these issue then so be it, but lease do not apologize on my behalf as if I should feel shame or guilt for travesties done by others. Yes I am deeply saddened by these things in the past and going on today. And as I am able I intervene. Words simply can not convey how disturbed (and honestly angered) I am by this post.

• Grace Gambrell // December 19, 2008 at 10:45 pm

  Patrick,
  I also am angered by the content of this (my own) post. But what I am angered by is that though perhaps none of us in the Boise Vineyard have personally caused any of these things, they still have been done by the the hands of often Christian, well-meaning Americans. And if not for the place of power and privelege that the Caucasian race has had in this country, who then would have been able to enslave or mistreat other minorities? When we Christians speak of this nation being founded on Godly principles; of God’s glory and grace resting on this country; of being “chosen” by God for a special purpose and at the same time cannot own what we Christians all over this country have collectively done, I’m afraid it further deepens the mistrust people so rightly have with Christianity.

• Marcus // December 20, 2008 at 8:22 am

  On this road of forgiving James we have done a lot of soul searching about the weaknesses of the Church and of ourselves as Christians. We have discussed how we can reach out to the broken world and how we have often been uncaring, unloving, arrogant and blind. While there is truth in all this we also have to realise that we are soldiers of Christ fighting a real enemy who is enslaving all mankind and who does not want us to be free.
  So while we all have sin and make mistakes and can do more to have a broken heart for a broken world, we have to realise the enemy is very real and is out to attack and destroy us. He is working through real people just as God is, and he has many ideologies that seek to attack us and have no desire to change, only to destroy.
  If Lucifer gave Eve a complete lie she would never have fallen. So he couched it in some half truth and twisted the truth. That is what he is still doing. Christians have always had failings and we still do. There is some truth in the accusations of Bill Maher and many others against Christians, and we should recognize it, repent and change. So yes there are some homophobes who are also Christian, we have been arrogant, etc. but also the good done by Christians worldwide far exceeds our sins.
  That the Bill Maher’s have a base for accusation and resentment does not mean their hatred is justified. It is our responsibility as humans to overcome our resentment. God spoke to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.”
  We, as Christians, are in the position of Abel, who offered his firstborn animals to God with a pure heart. God favoured his attitude and blessed him. It is our responsibility to go to our brother, overcome his resentment with love and compassion and then show Cain (the world) how to make an offering that is pleasing to God.
  Cain is already downcast. For instance, the homosexuals want to make an offering but already feel God has rejected them. So does Bill Maher. Our fundamental problem, the reason we so often anger Cain, is that we bask in the glory of our offering having been accepted. We forget Cain is out there, downcast and sometimes we may even taunt him. So he gets mad and feeling Abel is blocking him from God he kills Abel (I think this is the motive behind Bill Maher’s movie). However the end does not justify the means and he finds himself further away from God.
  But God has a different idea for us. His hope, as a parent, is that we love our brother, we feel his downcast spirit, the brokenness of the world, and we raise him up, bringing him voluntarily back to God. Then God can bless both Cain and Abel together. This is his formula. He always requires Abel to make an offering of faith which requires Abel to make a sacrifice or offering over a vertical time period. Noah, build an Ark, Abraham sacrifice these animals, sacrifice your son, Jacob, go suffer in Haran for twenty one years. But then he requires a substantial foundation of heart and love – Jacob go back to Esau and win his heart, Moses, set my people free, Jesus (the ultimate Abel) go the way of the cross and sacrifice your life so I can save mankind. Only after accomplishing this could we have the resurrection. So he told us to take up our cross and follow him.
  We have to be people who know our Father’s heart. A person who does not know the painful broken heart of God does not know His life and a person who has not experienced His heart is unable to know His situation. So I pray to be able to open my mind and find out what God’s heart is and what His love is. I pray to open my ears and hear His voice, to see with my eyes as He sees; to come into harmony with His mind and respond to the original appeal of my heart and conscience.

• Kathy // December 20, 2008 at 9:13 am

  I have been challenged this morning to go back and re-read Revelation 2 & 3 as the Lord is reaching out to the church with words of correction. It starts with Ephesus who has forsaken their first love and ends with Laodicea who says they have everything but have become lukewarm. We, the church, are the bride of Christ and at this point we still have some flaws. It seems that, from the beginning of church history the pattern has been pretty much the same. The church has an amazing revival and then gets busy going about living and doing the work of the church and tends to forget her first love.

  Our new president campaigned on the call for change. He often said that change doesn’t come from the top down it comes from the bottom up. I will have to respectfully disagree…real change only comes from the inside out…it has to start with a heart change.

  A new bride and groom start their marriage with a commitment to love and cherish forever. Thru most marriages, the challenges of everyday life try to push that glowing love into the lukewarm or cold stage. It takes effort to keep that love alive and a reminder once in a while that we need to reconnect and rekindle the flame.

  I attended a beautiful wedding recently, a miracle wedding really of a bride and groom who have both been radically transformed by the Lord. Tears filled our eyes as we watched the bride come down the aisle in her white gown. As she passed me, I had to smile. Showing throught the shoulder of her gown was the shadow of a tattoo. I thought, that is the bride of Christ. We are dressed in white because he has redeemed us, but we still have a few tatoos showing!

  I dare say that most of what ails the church would change if we would heed the call to the churches in Revelation and open the door to our hearts and let Him rekindle the flame of love. As we allow Him to change our heart to beat like His heart, we will be able to effectively love those around us.

• Patrick // December 20, 2008 at 9:13 am

  Grace all I can say is that to suggest that white christians alone are responsible for the injustices you mentioned is racist and uniformed.
  And to ignore the reason this country had to go to war (to defend ourselves from attack by a religious enemy) and to suggest that many who willingly went to war to defend family and country were some how lied to or tricked into it is again simply disgraceful. You obviously have some personal hurt you need to work through before you can stop blaming others for the guilt you feel. I’ll be praying for you. You have no idea what each of us at the Boise Vineyard have gone through, you do not know if we have or due now live lives of privilege or even if we are white. Please stop apologizing on behalf of everyone else and simply confess your own sins and let God deal with the rest of use. If the attitude you expressed is consistent with that of the Boise Vineyard community then I obviously need to find a new church home. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM THE CHURCH STAFF ON THIS MATTER.

• katie // December 20, 2008 at 1:47 pm

  ok.
  everybody just calm down.
  let’s all take a deeeeeep breath. of the Spirit.

  there is room for all of us – there is room for more than one opinion on all of these “political” issues. what needs to differentiate us from the world is how we manage to treat each other through these conversations.

  every one of us has been given a heart for different things by the Lord. different missions, different ministries – even different people. were that not the case, we would not be able to reach the vast array of people out there – different ears hear different songs.

  patrick, i am sorry that you have been hurt by some of what grace has posted – her heart is one of deep compassion and love for the poor and oppressed. this will naturally put her at odds with some of what goes on in wars. or with capitalism. or with the world in general. but we need the Grace’s of the world to pry the lid off of our sometimes hardened, unrepentant hearts.

  and Grace, there is a place for Patrick and the voice of those who were overwhelmingly damaged by 9/11 or other events, those with families in Iraq – those who genuinely believe that there is honor in defending a family, a nation, a belief.

  it is the Holy Spirit’s place to convict each of us to the different calls he has place on each of our hearts. it is our job to love one another.

  perhaps this is a moment for this blog to step up to its intentions – relationship. where we find these divides, perhaps what needs to happen for the purpose of unity and for fellowship is to meet. with a mediator or without – but to remember that behind the words typed on the blog there is the face of a brother, a face of a sister. to be loved. above all else.

• Grace Gambrell // December 20, 2008 at 4:00 pm

  Dear Patrick,

  I understand where you are coming from and can appreciate your viewpoint. You see, I felt the same way you feel several years ago, until I learned that it was not uncommon for preachers to teach on God’s love at church in the morning, go home for lunch, beat their slaves for having taken an unscheduled bathroom break, and go back and teach on God’s love again. Then I learned that after World War II, Caucasians who served were given a bonus to help them move to the suburbs while minorities were not given the same benefit and could afford only to stay in the cities. I have listened to an African American woman in the projects of inner-city Memphis, TN, who did not want to step inside a church because the (predominantly white) church down the street told her they “did not want her kind…” And I cried with her. And I apologized for the hurt she felt from the church which was not God’s heart. And I sensed she was not the only one who had had this kind of experience.

  I do not have a problem with White people. I consider myself White and check “Caucasian” in the little boxes when asked to identify my race. Nor do I feel that people of color and/or minorities have been innocent in the area of sin or selfishness. What I do hope for is confession for what we have done in the name of God and/or with God “on our side.” You could take the word “White” out of all of the paragraphs I wrote and still have the same message – that we have grown up with a privelege that many people cannot claim.

  I am also not implying that Christians have done nothing right. I only hope that those of us who have received the privelege (of what we think of when we think of the United States) will use this status to reach out to those around us and begin to break dividing walls by taking the first step to reconciliation.

  Again, I appreciate your response and am glad that since I can be honest, you can be, as well. But I do think it is time for some of us to own some of our history. And Katie, thank you for your kind words which I do not feel I have earned.
  Praying for reconciliation for all people,
  Grace

• Patrick // December 20, 2008 at 5:10 pm

  I am going to wait for the Vineyard leadership to weigh in on this before saying anything more.

• Marcus // December 20, 2008 at 7:49 pm

  I had an experience over twenty years ago when I was a travelling salesman in Oklahoma. I was in a town with a large Native American population. I found it very difficult to sell anything, especially to the native Americans, many of whose ancestors were brought to Oklahoma on the “Trail of Tears”. I am English, so my direct ancestors were not involved but as a white person I began to repent for all the atrocities we have committed. I really cried with tears of repentance for all we had done.On the third day people started buying from me, especially the native Americans. I everything changed for me in Oklahoma from then on and in the last twenty years Ihave found some wonderful native friends across America who I am still in contact with.
  So Grace thank you for your post. We all need to repent with tears for so many injustices just as we need to forgive those who have trespassed against us. It is in our repenting that we can be forgiven by those we have wronged.

• Grace Gambrell // December 20, 2008 at 10:57 pm

  Marcus,

  Thanks for your post. Your letter puts a personal experience and depth in this issue that I have mostly been on my knees in my bedroom about. I have had a few of these experiences but desire more. Such power in humility…

  And Patrick, I can appreciate your comment; Thank you.
  Grace

• Kevin // December 21, 2008 at 6:34 am

  What I hear in Grace’s repentance is the same kind of cry found through out the Old Testament’s prophetic writings. The writer wasn’t personally responsible for the sins of his people, but he, nevertheless, repented and called on the people to join in that repentance.

  I don’t have to be personally responsible for a sin to have its negative effects wreak havoc on my life or the lives of those I love.

  Patrick, Grace and I have all felt the aftermath of the sins in Grace’s list and have responded to them according to our place in life and place of relationship to God at that moment. The next time we do so, the Holy Spirit may lead us to respond in a manner much differently than any way we have done so previously. That is the Spirit filled life at its most powerful and most vunerable reality.

  To offer up prayers or repentance for your people group’s sin is the first step, but what follows is even more important.

  How do I evidence the fruit of repentance for the sins of “my people”?

  It isn’t easy, but it is simple. I come in the opposite Spirit to the sin.
  Where there is hatred, I come in love
  Where there is animosity, I come in peace
  Where there is ignorance, I come in truth…etc

  May we all find the way to live in such communion with the Father, that it could be said of us…”and the took note that these people had been with Jesus”(paraphrase of Acts 4:13)

• Patrick // December 21, 2008 at 8:12 am

  The problem I have with Grace’s post is she is not seeking God’s forgiveness for herself, I read it as she is blaming someone else for those things. Had each verse started with “God please for give me for…” I would have no issue with the post. I read her post as judgmental not repentant.

• Grace Gambrell // December 21, 2008 at 10:40 am

  Patrick,
  I apologize that it came across this way. Know that this is something the Lord has been working in me for 10+ years and I do truly repent of my role, whatever that may be.

  And Kevin, thank you for the challenging reminder that it cannot stop with just repentence. I hope the Lord continues to show me how I can live it out on a daily basis.
  Grace

• Patrick // December 21, 2008 at 11:34 am

  Grace I accept the apology and I forgive you. And please forgive me for posting comments that were lacking a loving tone. I too am undergoing a transformation in this area and it will take time for God to reveal everything to me.
  I appreciated Tri’s message this morning and as I told him, I know this is not what he intended, but it sounded like he was telling me to confess someone else’s sin. I have deep sorrow and regret for the way the church is perceived by unbelievers and I acknowledge the wrong done to so many by those who claim the name of Christ. “Having a form of godliness they deny it’s power.” 2 Timothy 3:1-9

• Grace Gambrell // December 21, 2008 at 2:57 pm

  Patrick,

  Please accept another apologie. The Lord used you to reveal to me that I am in need of forgiving James. I am a Christian who has grown up in the church and has been hurt by it and have harbored bitterness in my heart for my own hurts or for hurts done to others (especially those who will no longer come to church, or worse, who will no longer give Jesus a chance).

  You were the second person in these blogs to point out that I needed to forgive others and move on. Honestly, my response in my heart was initially that both of you were taking things too personally. But, even if it wasn’t my intention, if I am coming across as being judgemental, than I need to examine my heart. Something in my heart must be communicating this.

  So I asked the Lord after your post and He showed me that I have much to forgive the church for. And for this same reason, I have much to ask forgiveness OF the church for!

  The fact that I am coming across as judgemental is putting me in the same place as the Christians I am trying most not to be like! How pharasitical of me!

  We are all on this journey together and the Lord knows all of our hearts. Last time I checked, He is the only one who can judge… So, I ask your forgiveness. I (we all) need you and your view desperately to balance out what God’s heart is for all of us!

  I was in tears as I was driving to church this morning, realizing my exposed sin! To the Boise Vineyard family and to the Church at large, I ask your forgiveness.

  Thank you for showing grace to me!
  With love,
  Grace

• katie // December 21, 2008 at 4:35 pm

  i just really want to thank all of you for your comments on this blog – for how you have worked through this, both being willing to have the Lord shine light into your own heart and to be open to dialoguing with others … you have both modeled, here, what it means to communicate truths in love.

  what a great example of transparency, humility and honesty.

• Patrick // December 21, 2008 at 6:02 pm

  Grace I’ll have to seek you and your husband out at church some time and we can “hug it out”. Then I’ll take you both to lunch.

• Grace Gambrell // December 21, 2008 at 6:11 pm

  It would be our honor…

• Lucas // December 21, 2008 at 8:51 pm

  I see that this blog has become a huffington post blog. Nice. Can I say something conservative now? Oh, wait, I forgot, we are busily forgetting that even those not-so-smooth (un-apologetic) Jonah-type evengelists are nothing without the Holy Spirit. It wasn’t Jonah that moved in Ninevah, moved those people to repent. It wasn’t Moses’ smooth apologetic demeanor (Moses was a murderer: Egypt’s Most Wanted) that conjured magic; the miracles came from God. Moses got himself banned from the Promised land by thinking that he was more to thank for the miracle of water from the rock that was God’s love.
  I’m sorry, I’ve disagreed in part with this series from the start. Now we’re seeing what self-condemnation brings: shame, guilt, and self-loathing. We are a downright mean religion. It that what we believe now??? This isn’t the Spirit moving. There is nothing that we can do to make ourselves better evangelicals, except to be less our own masters and more God’s children. If that sounds like religious speak, then we just don’t believe what we say we believe. As God’s children we can do no wrong, as we can do nothing but follow his most beautiful, ingenious will (which is the least boring thing one can do). We are rushing headlong toward being acceptable to the world, not in-and-not-of-the-world. I’m sorry, Jesus clearly says we will be reviled and will say all manner of evil against us falsely for his sake. I’m not exactly a martyr, but those of religions that admire martyrs have one thing right. Those people are literally willing to die for their faith. All through Acts we see Paul getting killed on. Do we really think it is our foibles, our shortcomings that cause people to hate us not our message? The world loves foibles. It hates purity.
  Ok, please, pray about the direction of this movement, leaders.

• Lucas // December 21, 2008 at 9:14 pm

  And, I have to say that I was saying the exact same things as Patrick, when I got home from church.
  And I quote:
  If the attitude you expressed is consistent with that of the Boise Vineyard community then I obviously need to find a new church home. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM THE CHURCH STAFF ON THIS MATTER
  I’ve been going to Vineyard churches for 10 years this winter, but I do know that the spirit in which some of the works are discussed seems awfully self-aggrandizing. If I wanted to be stiff-necked, I’d go to the synagogue, thanks.
  But, on the other hand, I do think that the church should be the center of all well-fare programs. So, good job on that.
  Cheers- Lucas

• Patrick // December 21, 2008 at 10:50 pm

  Lucas, I understand what you are saying, I am still grappling with this morning message. I do not believe it is the antagonistic unbeliever that Tri is speaking about, I believe he is referring to those who would otherwise come to God, or at least be open to hearing the gospel, but for some hurt, ridicule, or shame they have experienced from someone clamming the title Christian. But I do agree that there is a difference between proclaiming the gospel in love and befriending the world. I have no close friends who are not christians. How could I we would not have in common that which is central to the life of every believer a relationship with Christ. I have casual acquaintances with many who do not yet have a relationship with Christ, but we can never be equally yoke in our friendship.
  Lucas I hope like me you are willing to give it some time before you decide where all this is taking the church.

• Brenna // December 21, 2008 at 10:51 pm

  Lucas,

  I can understand where you and Patrick are coming from. I did feel slightly like I was being pushed into feeling guilty for things I have not done, as well. But the real question for all of us now is not “who should be apologizing or feeling responsible for those things that happened” but “what am I doing or not doing that is contributing to the continuation of this problem?” That’s what God hit me with when I started protesting it wasn’t my fault.

  The fact of the matter is, the church in general has failed many, many times – as is to be expected, honestly, from an organization with humans in it. I really think we need to let God reveal to us what we have been doing to support its continued failure – because I think we have been failing (for one example, see my other posts discussing the ’sales pitch’ for winning souls to Christ). For me, I took the JAMES acronym and laid it against myself. What have I personally been doing? Is it really applicable to me? If it is, is it just partially, or am I being convicted by it in its entirety? At first I thought it was only partial, but God kept nudging until I realized that I am judgmental; antagonistic; mean-spirited; exclusive; and self-righteous – not to the level that Tri was talking about as far as the majority of the church goes, but definitely enough to compromise my testimony.

  So I am going to change the James in me, and let others worry about their own James. If we all can do that, the church’s image will drastically change – not because we are trying to change it, but because a change of the organization is what automatically follows a change inside the people.

  As for your statements about the world hating our message, I think Tri hit the nail on that one. If someone REALLY understands what we’re all about, what God is all about, they won’t have a problem with it (except for the having to just accept grace and not do something to earn it, which is just hard I think for humans to be okay with); but Satan loves the misunderstandings of God. He loves bringing forth the image of the militant ‘no fun ever’ kind of God. I mean, look at how he spoke to Eve: “Did God really say you had to do this? Well, I hate to break it to you, but He just doesn’t want you to be like Him.” I can almost hear the unspoken statement, “He doesn’t want you to know how much fun He’s telling you not to have.”

  Who would ever want a religion that prevents you from having ‘fun’? On top of that, there have been the things Christians have messed up on. On top of no ‘fun’, we have an image of JAMES – and unfortunately, that has only been exaggerated by Satan. There are Christians who are not modeling Christ well, to say the least – and those are the ones the media loves to capture on film, because those examples validate others’ refusal to join in. I think Satan jumps on that and introduces thoughts that lead to beliefs that ALL Christians are like that, instead of only a certain group of them are like that. (Forefront in my mind is the group of ‘Christians’ who protested military men’s funerals because God was punishing America for homosexuals.)

  We can’t change the faulty ambassadors. But if we make sure that we are working those negative qualities (and I think Satan subtly prods a little here, adds a hurt there, and viola! the start of one of these negative qualities that will hurt the Christian’s influence, which he then proceeds to strengthen inside that Christian) out of ourselves, than we can reach out to the people who have been hurt by the church and be accepted – so long as we remain honest, open, and willing to listen when God and/or others speak into our lives about things that we might be straying from/into.

  I think that last paragraph is the whole intention of PFJ. Not just to apologize to the unbelievers who have been hurt by the church, but to give us the ability to recognize those qualities that have turned unbelievers away from God are also a lot of the time something we may not even be aware that we are doing – and once we let God reveal those things to us about ourselves, we can work with Him to fix those things and, as I said before, if enough people change internally the organization will change externally.

• Brandon // December 22, 2008 at 12:02 am

  I’d like to comment on this, if I may.

  “I have casual acquaintances with many who do not yet have a relationship with Christ, but we can never be equally yoke in our friendship.” – Patrick

  I respectfully disagree on this. I actually have a very close friend who is not a believer — and it is BECAUSE I am willing to be there, as a friend, and listen to his deepest struggles, that I believe God will use me to open the door to his heart. At least I’ll be a part of it, I pray.

  He has found himself sharing things, then stopping and asking, “Why did I tell you that?” And my response? Not judgment, shock, or anything but a shrug and a chuckle, and then an encouragement to go on.

  This friend wants me to tell him what I really think, about all matters. When I find myself backing off and not wanting to offend by talking too much about Christ, HE’S the one to say, “Brandon, you’re fine.”

  So, I would disagree with that viewpoint. I think it’s only an uneven yolk if you view yourself as the Savior, which I do not. I am merely a dude that was made that was saved and is being (stress being) changed. I have nothing to hold back from those that want to be my friends. I have no burden to save them, only to be with them and be true, speak when it is time, and be silent and let them figure things out other times.

  This will probably stretch some folks’ melons, but this same friend is a Buddhist, and recently, after the friendship took a more “real” tone (I started telling him that Jesus loved him, after he asked me what I thought of him as a person), he said that at an acupuncture appointment, his guide or whatever said that he was receiving a lot of divine guidance.

  Coincidence? I don’t think so. I think religion (note, I don’t believe true Christ followers to be religious, Christ came to end religion, I think) has a piece of truth without knowing it fully, and thereby clouds it with other “understandings”. But I do think there is a piece of truth there. And how interesting that it was after this friendship developed further that this friend tells me about that event.

  All I can say is, grace grace grace grace grace. If someone is hurt by my family, I apologize on behalf of my family. No pride, no “but but but”, just humility.

  GOD will defend my honor. GOD will take care of my justice. GOD will see to it that what’s right is right, in the end. How much better is it to apologize for something I might not have personal responsibility for, then to find out later how much I WAS responsible?

  This is not self-hating. I LOVE myself in Christ. I hate the flesh, but love what God is doing in my heart. I love my faith, love my relationship, have no desire for religion, and have no interest in anything but fighting for ultimate transparency and humility. It’s a long ways yet for me…

• Dan // December 22, 2008 at 2:02 am

  As I see it, and as Pastor Tri repeated “Perception is reality” If we are perceived as JAMES then to the world that’s who we are. It makes no difference if the perception is directly from us as an individual or from other christians past or present. Who really wants to be in the company of JAMES and why would the world want to listen to us. Our challenge is to change the perception. How did the perception come to be. A good micro example is Prop 8 in CA. On both sides it was stick it in the other’s eye. I saw some christans who were roughed up and claimed that they had rights (legally they do). The question is, will getting into the worldly opponents face convince him to change. I’ve discovered that it tends to set their feet more firmly and a unfavorable perception is born. I loved Rick Warren’s church. They might not have won anyone to their side by serving protesters coffee and donuts, but it sure didn’t cause feet to be more firmly planted. This Prop 8 contoversy was a perfect example of how Jesus would not have done it. He didn’t go into worldly places and point out the error of their ways. To do so is a waste of time such as casting pearls before swine. He did develop relationships where though firm in his convictions, sinners felt accepted. So, what keeps us from apologizing for errent christian family members behavior past/present, Is it fear of demonstrating weakness or is it pride? I think Tri’s point is many people have been hurt by some part of the church. If an apology can help heal so that the gospel might be heard, then that’s what ought to be done.

• Patrick // December 22, 2008 at 9:24 am

  Brandon I was not stating a viewpoint but a truth from God’s word. His word declares it is not possible for a believer and non-believer to be equal in any relationship. I did not say that does not mean they can’t be friends, but friendship and fellowship are not the same. Many christians toss around the word fellowship like it has no meaning, it does. Fellowship is only possible between God’s people and Himself. All I am saying is that there is a difference in how close I can be with a brother or sister in Christ and how close I can be to the one who is still outside the family of God. This does not mean we tread them with less dignity, or honor. In fact Christ told us to treat the stranger with double honor. Give the stranger the best seat, serve them first.

• Brandon // December 22, 2008 at 11:11 am

  Patrick,

  I guess what I’m getting at is that I can’t bring myself to have an “us” and “them” mentality. I can’t get behind that. I AM “them”, save that I know Christ and am pursuing Him. But if I was not “them”, I wouldn’t need saving. So, I am a saint, yes, no longer a sinner, but I can’t forget those who are behind me, especially those who I sense God is moving in the same direction.

  I guess, I have a very hard time labeling anyone a strict “unbeliever”, because I cannot see how it ends. I pray for God’s perspective, which is not bound by time, I don’t believe. I do think God knows and can see now those who will choose Him and those who will not. But that viewpoint is purposefully not given to us, so that we would let our love be known to all.

  Yes, the Israelites got in much doo-doo by becoming that which repulsed God. But I would challenge you that God’s original intention for Israel was to become what the church is called to become, now. Not like the world, but certainly in (and with) it. And God’s ultimate plan was fulfilled, when the Lion of Judah, the Son of Man, did just that. He did not sin as those around Him did, but He did not separate Himself from them. He certainly spent time alone with God, as we all must in order to know the Father’s will. And, yes, He chose some closer friends who would fellowship with him closely, though one proved to be an “ill” choice, by our standards. That also says something to me — Judas. I don’t know what, but it says something.

  All this to say, I don’t do the things my unsaved friends do. I’m not losing what I have to fit in. I’m simply saying, if I can still be in fellowship with them without conforming to their standards (as my current experience is showing), then God is doing something, has some kind of plan. I don’t want to miss that about worrying about my fellowship being “equal”.

  All things being equal…but they aren’t. If God had that standard, Abraham wouldn’t have gotten very far. God passed through the blood, Abraham didn’t out of fear, the seed of Israel (and ultimately, humanity) betrayed its Maker, and yet God still carried out His end of the deal.

  To be Christ-like? I’d say, it’s not worrying about things being “equal”; rather, it’s listening to the Spirit’s guidance on a case by case basis.

• Marcus // December 22, 2008 at 12:29 pm

  Tri writes about the religious scrutiny Jesus endured. In this Christmas week we are thinking of his birth. Joseph and Mary went to the town of his birth but there was no room at the Motel 6. Here was a young teenage girl at full term with her fiance and no one had the compassion to find somewhere for them. Why not? In the Jewish society unwed mothers were one step away from adultresses who they stoned to death.
  In our eyes, with hindsight, we know who he is, but to the people of the time few were like Simon and Anna, who recognized him because they were filled with the spirit. as he grew up many people must have snickered about his conception and wondered about his father. The whole family must have suffered but none more than Jesus who had the stigma of being illegitimate. Who would believe or even conceive that the Holy Spirit was his father.
  When he was twelve his parents it took his parents three days to get back to the temple. I am sure many if not almost all parents would be frantic after a few hours. In John 7 he avoided Judea because they were waiting to assasinate him, but his brothers told him to go and be public. Do these incidents tell us anything about his family life? I think it shows that he was very alone, an outcast even in his own family.
  Even his cousin John, though he testifies to Jesus, later seems a little distant to me and finally has to ask “Are you he who is to come or shall we look for another?” These were his family, the people closest to him.
  Can I endure such stigma as a Christian? Of course I like to think so but in reality it is very hard and painful when I am not loved. It is even harder for me to give and to forgive.
  On the other hand it is easy for me to make false judgements, to jump to conclusions and judge and stigmatize others.

• Lucas // December 22, 2008 at 8:44 pm

  “Perception is reality.” is common parlance in marketing. I find it particularly insulting that we feel we have to look at the angles and trust on our own marketing schemes to reach those that are not a number of this body.
  The benefit of servant evangelism and power evangelism is that it puts the Holy Spirit at the forefront. This marketing management evangelism is a little rancid in my mouth.
  I do feel sorry that people get beat up. I even feel sorry for myself, insofar as I have been spiritually abused. But, I don’t look to worldly axioms (perception is reality), to solve my spiritual dilemmas. And, whatever happened to Proverbs 14:12, “There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.”
  Seems to me that how things seem is irrelevant. Things are NOT what they seem.
  Perception is NOT reality. That’s all the dissent I have for tonight. Now I’m going to put my angel hat back on.
  Pax vobiscum,
  Lucas

• Grace Gambrell // December 22, 2008 at 9:14 pm

  Dear Lucas,

  Actually, I’ve found the people of the Boise Synagogues, Ahavath Beth and Chabad Lubavitch to be warm, friendly, open, and seeking after God with an amazing depth. Perhaps you should pay a visit.
  Grace

• Lucas // December 22, 2008 at 9:41 pm

  Grace,
  You picked up on that, I see. Meh.

• Dan // December 22, 2008 at 11:29 pm

  Ah Lucus, I love your dependance in the Holy Spirit. I agree that results only come when one shares the gospel in the power of the Holy Spirit. Servant evangelism is great and there is nothing like seeing a person respond to “Power evangelism.” Like it or not, and though it’s common parlance in marketing, the world operates on the bases of “Perception is reality.” Because that is their world view, their decisions and actions will very often be based on perception instead of truth or fact. I would want you to solve your spiritual dilemmas by aligning yourself with God’s truth and world view (Recommend “The Truth Project”). I’m glad perception is not reality to you! However, the world perceives us as JAMES and we need to find a way to reach in and grab a few people out. I’m totally against self loathing. I hate how I’m classified by the world as JAMES. I believe at work I’m not. But, I just got the idea that I should ask some of my peers if I or some of my fellow believers look like JAMES. Then I might have the potential to change things with God’s help.

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