please forgive james

46 responses so far ↓

• Lucas // December 22, 2008 at 9:33 pm

  I think that the message of the J.A.M.E.S. series is a bit self-abusive. Although the Vineyard’s strength is that is acknowledges a Christian Church as the only institution that exists solely for the purpose of including those that are not already members, I do not see the profit in pushing shame guilt and false accusation on the church. It’s pretty hard to get the mote out of my eye when I’m being poked in the eye with a stick.
  When I read Thomas a Kempis, I remind myself that the self-denying things he says are attitudes popular in monastic philosophy. However, I find in the Bible a liberating philosophy not a self-condemning philosophy.
  Eccl 11: 9-10 “Walk in the ways of your heart/remove sorrow from your heart.”
  I’m very interested in a faith that is permissive and even more interested in learning the benefits and boundaries thereto.
  Maybe I should embrace this new self-abusive philosophy, as the boomers have surely softened criticism and lowered expectations beyond all standards of decency.
  And, I don’t wholeheartedly accept the idea that “Perception is reality.” That is a staple of marketing philosophy, but I’ve never read that in the Bible. Au contrair: Proverbs 14:12″There is a way that SEEMS right to a man, but its end is the way of death.” Translation: things are not as they seem.
  It’s great to have an attractive logo and marketing slogan, but it’s a little predictable the direction this has already gone. We could seriously just hire a professional ad agency to make stuff up at this point.
  And, smart people can smell pandering a mile away.
  Let’s just be genuine. No pandering required, just the Holy Spirit, who can even turn a mean-spirited, judgmental, nationalist jerk like Jonah into a success.
  JONAH…JONAH, can we read JONAH now?

• LaWayne // December 22, 2008 at 10:05 pm

  Years ago I started living a non-JAMES lifestyle. A former boss of mine actually mentioned to me that I was different than any of the other Christians she had met because I did not stand in judgment of her or come across in any way that I felt superior than anyone else. When Tri stood there and said that ALL Christians (no buts allowed, no matter what testimony the non-believing world will give) are guilty of being JAMES, I was personally offended. Extremely offended.

  I couldn’t help but think of how Jesus approached the sinners of his day. Where is his apology for the religious bigots and their treatment of the lost? With no apologies he approached the sinners with love and compassion, and power. What happened to the Vineyard DNA of spirit evangelism? Has that become too 70’s for the new millenium? Jesus publicly denounced the religious hypocrites of his day; no one could accuse him of being part of that crowd.

  Are there religious bigots today? Of course there are. They are the people (yes, even in the Vineyard) who turn away from friends because they have remarried. They are the people who denounce those who are suffering because “there’s no room for despair in a Christian’s life”, even though Paul said he despaired even of life at one point. They are the people who are so eager to “comfort” the hurting by belittling what they are going through by pronouncing that God will not allow you to go through more than you can bear, even though Paul said the pressures he faced were exactly that – more than he could bear. (Which, by the way, is why he despaired even of life, see 2 Cor. 1) They are the people who refuse to see that just because a person looks good on the outside doesn’t mean he isn’t grasping for any shred of hope to just make it through another day.

  But to stand up and judge the entire church as was done on Sunday (ironically for being judgmental) is to say that no one has experienced the grace of God to the degree that they are able to extend that grace to others. That no one gets it.

  In my experience, an apology given, even a life lived right and acknowledged by the world as being what Christians should be, still does not automatically give you a right to speak into an unbeliever’s life. If the Spirit isn’t preparing the soil, isn’t convicting the lost, isn’t giving us the words to say, then we are operating on our own power, and it doesn’t matter how many apologies preface the message of the gospel. As soon as you bring in an external standard of authority, the doors slam closed and you become just another one of those “judgmental” Christians.

• Jason B. // December 22, 2008 at 11:04 pm

  Am I the only one that totally missed the self-abuse portion of the message on Sunday? I didn’t pick up on that at all, and I don’t think I’m dense.
  The message to unbelievers needs to be (which I believe to be the message Tri was advocating) “I’m sorry you’ve been hurt”, not “I’m sorry I hurt you”.
  As has been said many times already, perception is reality in the eyes of the perceiver. It may not actually be that way, but if the person who has been offended/harmed/judged/etc. views it this way, then their emotions will override any rational understanding that one individual that harmed them doesn’t represent the entire group.
  People aren’t going to be judged into the kingdom. Jesus didn’t condemn the sinners he came in contact with; only the religious leaders of the day that were living by the letter of the law and totally missing the point. The only way to establish relationships with those in the world who are hurting is by meeting them at their point of need.
  What many people today need is a hug, quite honestly. They need to know that God loves them just as they are; that He loved them enough to pursue them throughout the history of mankind. Is there a need for repentance and reconciliation in order for people to be accepted by God? Of course there is. Will we ever get a chance to tell them about that need if we can’t start a conversation with them in the first place? Probably not.
  Tri’s right on. We need to be ambassadors of Christ’s love to a world that needs it. Ambassadors don’t necessarily voice their own positions, they present the positions of the government they represent as their own. God desires reconciliation with his creation, and if it takes an apology from us for the hurt that’s been visited upon them by one of our own, then we need to make it happen.

• Dan // December 22, 2008 at 11:44 pm

  Ditto Jason!

• Lucas // December 22, 2008 at 11:53 pm

  Wasn’t one of the definitions of who is James, YOU, the church, evangelicals, what have you? And, what does James stand for? Judgmental? Antagonistic? Mean-spirited? Exclusive? Self-righteous?
  There might be a good idea here somewhere.
  This is the worst Tri’s admitted to on the Huffington Post. “During that era, many Christians slowly lost their value of caring for the earth, myself included… until one fateful day.” This is a far cry from apologizing that we are Judgmental Antagonistic Mean-spirited Exclusive and Self-righteous. If he really thinks this is how we need to approach the unchurched, he doesn’t say as much in his Huffington blog. But, he said it at church.
  If he would cite 2Cor12:9-10 “My strength is made perfect in weakness/in my weakness I am strong,” it would be awesome. I’m very much in favor of thinking less of ourselves and reveling in our shortcomings. But, this isn’t reveling in shortcomings.
  If you want to pick on Christians, pick on the denominations that go around calling people heretics and telling people they are going to hell. Oh, wait, that’s what Jonah did. But, even though he was not a smooth operator, God provided the increase. Surprise!

• Jason B. // December 23, 2008 at 9:31 am

  Jonah didn’t call the Ninevites sinners when relating to them (or, at least, the Bible doesn’t tell us that he did). All Jonah said was “Forty days from now, Nineveh will be destroyed”. Jonah’s issue was obedience to God and displeasure with how and who God chose to forgive. He told God the Ninevites were sinners and he didn’t want them to be saved, but very little is recorded about how Jonah interacted with the people he was sent to convey the message to.

  Can we assume that he was the same crummy, obstinate person to the Ninevites as he was to God? Sure, that’s probably a safe bet. However, the fact of the matter remains that Jonah being judgmental toward Nineveh isn’t the point of that story. The point is that God will make happen what he wants to have happen, whether or not you’re on board with it.

  As for what Tri said in the HP as opposed to what he said on Sunday morning, he was dealing with different audiences, and different folks need to hear different things at different times. Give him a chance to say what God leads him to say in the time in which God leads him to say it. Is the issue that Tri isn’t saying what you want him to say, or that he’s not saying it fast enough? I don’t know what to tell you, in that case.

• Kathy // December 23, 2008 at 10:02 am

  As one who has been in the church for over half a century…wow, that’s a long time…I can relate to this subject! Also, as one who has been in this church for 16 years, I have learned that when Tri teaches on a subject that stirs the pot a bit, I need to go to the Lord and ask him to show me what I need to hear out of this. In defense of the church, the body of believers, I can say that I have known some amazing people who have loved and served the Lord, but I haven’t known any perfect people yet. We are all in a growth process until they close the lid on our casket. Perhaps this is why the Word has so much to say on the topic of forgiveness.

  Yes, I have been hurt, at times, deeply by people in the church. Yes, I have also hurt others, sometimes intentionally and more often unintentionally, but I have caused hurt by my actions. After one very painful instance in my life, I decided to go to another church the following Sunday and just blend in to a large congregation. They had a guest speaker that morning who’s topic was “Forgiveness”. God set me up! I still remember his definition, “forgiveness means you cancel their debt, they don’t owe you anything.” I had a choice to make, even if the other person never asked me to forgive them. It took a few years and another couple of church conflicts for me to get the picture. If I don’t forgive others, I might as well be putting out my hands and feet and telling the enemy to put the shackles on because I will be the one put in bondage.

  So why would I ask someone who has been hurt by the church to please forgive me? Especially if I wasn’t the one who hurt them in the first place. As Tri said, I am called to be an ambassador of reconciliation. I am called to be someone the Lord can use to help people be reconciled to God, to help them to accept the Lord’s forgiveness for their sins and to help them be set free from the bondage of unforgiveness in their own lives. Their anger and unforgiveness toward the church, real or perceived, is really hurting them more than it is hurting me.

  One of the hardest things to watch is someone who feels they have been wronged by the church decide to not forgive and hold on to their anger and bitterness. It is like poison to them and affects them physically as well as spiritually, and if left unchecked is passed on to their children. What struck me as Tri was teaching, was that maybe the next time that family member who is so bitter starts in on all the hypocrites in the church my response might be, I’m sorry, please forgive me if I have in any way enforced that hurt in your life. In the past, judgement, antagonism, meanness, etc. have been my response. Could it be that Proverbs 15:1 is true? “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”

• Taryn // December 23, 2008 at 10:02 am

  I totally hear what each of you are saying, but I also totally related to Tri on Sunday. Lets go over those words again…Judgmental. Antagonistic. Mean Spirited. Exclusive. Self-righteous. I am sorry that the thought that you may have been like this in the past and even recently is so offensive. I am not ashamed to say that I do fall into some of these as times, some even recently. I am not ashamed because I know that God doesnt judge me for it.

  Just because I am a strong believer who wants to share Christ with the world, doesnt mean I am going to do it perfect each time. I am going to have periods where I am judgmental, where I am exclusive, where I am mean-spirited. That means I am human, and still struggle with the human flesh. I am not saying that this is an excuse, I am just saying that it is still a struggle.

  I know that there are times that, without even realizing it sometimes, I am judgmental towards others. There are times that I get mean-spirited in my heart towards others. I may not even show it outwardly, and thus people think I am changed so much from who I used to be. I can put on any front on the outside, and still be feeling all kinds of crap on the inside. For me, it isnt until I daily turn those feelings over that I can even get through one hour not feeling one of them. As a child of God who still struggles daily, I am not ashamed to say that I am still learning to not be judgmental and mean-spirited.

  I find it very hard to believe that anyone, other than Christ, can display perfection at all. Everyone will go through J.A.M.E.S. at some point, and to say that you will not, you are only fooling yourself.

  As for the HP, Tri is reaching a different audience with that and that audience doesnt need to hear “condemnation” as some of you put it. That audience needs to hear that there is hope and that there is a place to find that hope. Tri’s message to us is that we need to be that place of hope. If we are still harboring those JAMES feelings, how can we be a place of hope?

  What is our moto…”Come as you are and you’ll be loved.” We need to be actively living that out. It is great that your car is living it out by wearing the bumper sticker, but that doesnt mean that you also shouldnt be living it out daily. It is not our cars job to witness, it is our job. We were all called to bring this news to the world, how are we doing with that?

  I do see a lot of judgment in our church. I have several friends who are going through some tough stuff right now, and they are constantly being judged by their so called “Friends” from church. It seems that a lot of “Christians” these days will gladly stand by their friends when things are smooth sailing, but if there is a bump in the road, then it is just to tough to be there anymore. That seems to sum up JAMES to me. Times are tough, so bail. It is during the tough times that God is often times most viewable to us. I dont know about you all, but I get carried alot through tough times by God and by my friends who are not judging and excluding me. Isnt it time we start being Christ to others?

  I really believe that Tri is being called right now to be the voice that is hard to hear. He is saying some pretty tough stuff for us to take in, but it is also important for us to hear it. We can hide with our heads in the sand all we want and hope that people see Christ displayed by the part of us that isnt buried, or we can use our lives and our words and actions to display Him.

  Last questions by me on this rant….WHAT WOULD JESUS DO? What did He do when things got tough for Him? Did He run and hide from the tough things, or did He stand up and take a stand for His Father?

  End of rant…

• Marcus // December 23, 2008 at 10:10 am

  Joyful.Amiable.Merciful.Embracing.Sympathetic. I know these aren’t the most appropriate words but they will do for now. My point is that James is both. And all people, whether Christian or not, are both. We make the choice, every minute of every day. I am sure most of the religious leaders of Jesus’ time did not start out wanting to be evil . They started out wanting to serve the Lord. Yet they laid down the law in their favour,oppressed the people and rejected Jesus, so he told them they were abrood of vipers. As Tri said in his sermon before Christmas a year ago, Caiaphas denied Jesus because of his religious dogma.
  In the process of forgiving James I have come to to recognize our weaknesses (as a church and as an individual) and repent; respect others and ourselves; forgive, forget and move on.

• Brandon // December 23, 2008 at 10:41 am

  Maybe I’m just too close to it all (being on staff and having known who James was this whole time), but I really appreciated and got a lot of value out of this series. I personally understand that sanctification is an ongoing process that includes many potholes and mess-ups. So, just like with Celebrate Recovery, taking a daily inventory and checking myself against the Word, I feel J.A.M.E.S. has given me another tool to utilize daily, moment by moment.

  I personally really value the idea expressed by Tri, about apologizing for your family. I felt that put it into a good context.

• Lindsey // December 23, 2008 at 11:28 am

  When Tri revealed who James was, a slideshow of all the people I have hurt began playing in my mind. I have been judgmental, exclusive, and self-righteous. Thank you for the opportunity to repent.

  If you ever meet one of the people I have offended, please ask them to forgive me (the list is long, and I have no way of contacting many of them myself), and please forgive me yourself for the mess I’ve left you with.

• LaWayne // December 23, 2008 at 11:44 am

  Taryn: Last questions by me on this rant….WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

  Let’s rephrase the question: What did Jesus NOT do? Did Jesus label all the believing community as hypocrites because many were? Did Jesus label all believers as greedy and gossips because there were many who were greedy and gossips?

  My issue is not that we should take ownership of what we have done. I don’t even have a problem admitting that the church has acted pretty horribly in the past, and often in the present as well. And as Jesus did, when my former boss was furious with how the church treated her sister after her divorce, I let her know that those were people who don’t get what being a Christian is about. I called the sin for what it is without throwing dirt at the whole church. Just like Jesus did and would do today.

• Lucas // December 23, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  Jason B:
  Did you miss Jonah Chapter 4? “But, it displeased Jonah exceedingly (that the Ninevites repented), and he became angry./ Therefore now, O Lord, please take my life from me, for it is better for me to die than to live./then Jonah went and sat on the east side of the city to see what would become of the city.”
  It’s clear that Jonah hated the Ninevites. I know in Sunday school that the story is about “Jonah and the Whale”. But, the conclusion of the story is the message, not the whale. And, the conclusion is that Jonah was a prophet that hated the non-Jew Ninevites. It is exactly like what we’re talking about here. Jonah was JAMES in every way imaginable. He asked God to kill him! That’s death by cop, where the cop is God. That’s a pretty bad attitude for a prophet.
  <> -my point exactly, so why the self-abuse? Jonah was obedient only, when he went into Ninevah. His heart wasn’t in it. He didn’t care. But, God had his way and even took pity on Jonah’s mean spirited behavior.

• Brandon // December 23, 2008 at 1:37 pm

  Again, I guess I see it more from the “family” perspective. If a member of my family sinned against someone else, I would apologize to the person offended on my family’s behalf. I don’t think that constitutes flinging dirt at my whole family. It’s just that so many of us, at one point or another (at least I can testify to my own shortcomings) have fallen short. That’s why we need grace, no?

  I really have a hard time seeing Tri as “judgmental” by challenging us to examine ourselves, and ask for forgiveness where needed. And I will agree that many worldly people will still have a problem with God’s standard of life, no matter how we approach it.

  But, I guess, I look at this as an opportunity to apologize for where my family HAS got it wrong. We ALL have gotten in wrong SOMEWHERE. I have been all of the things JAMES sums up at different times in my life (and, some days, at different times throughout the day).

  I think we give ourselves as the Church TOO MUCH credit to say that there is even one Christian who has never at least once rubbed someone the wrong way unnecessarily. And I for one don’t see it as a, “Yeah, we’re so evil” message. Rather, it’s, “Look, we’re no better than you. God uses broken vessels. And as time passes, we are healed.” Is that not the most powerful testimony of all, to be humble and admit wrongdoing? This is not dirt flinging, it’s honesty. Not that we’re all bad all the time, but we’ve all said and done stupid things and one time or another, and WE ARE THE CHURCH. So, if someone’s been hurt by the church, I’m not going to tell them it wasn’t the church, because if my hand smacks someone in the face, it was still me. Maybe just one part, but it was still me.

  I don’t entirely understand why Christ chose to use an imperfect vessel that doesn’t always get the “brain waves”, but I’m starting to get it.

  And yes, Jonah was used in spite of his stupidity. Yes. I tremble to think THAT is our hero. My aim is a bit higher.

• Lucas // December 23, 2008 at 1:40 pm

  Just for the record, I just posted a pro-Tri, pro-Rick Warren comment on the Hot Air blog. There are a lot of different faiths bashing the kinder, gentler, non-confrontational evangelism of our ilk.
  Most conservatives are not kind to pastors like Warren and Tri. So, there you go.
  http://hotair.com/archives/2008/12/22/melissa-etheridge-to-gays-turns-out-rick-warrens-a-great-guy-so-lets-let-it-go/

• Lucas // December 23, 2008 at 1:49 pm

  Brandon:
  The Holy Spirit is the hero. The message is one of hope. If a jerk like Jonah (a hypocritical prophet jerk) can be used by God and even loved by God, well, then there’s hope for boomer offspring like me. There’s hope that every Christian no matter how JAMSEY can be used contrary to our sense of how things are supposed to work. Praise God for that; He’s a rock star!
  I’ll give you the family apology analogy. That was decent. I’d even say it was good. I’ve noticed that parents don’t take responsibility for their children’s actions, whether Christian parents or not. I’d say it is a social problem not a Christian problem, which makes laying the sin at Christian feet seem that much more unfair.

• LaWayne // December 23, 2008 at 2:09 pm

  Once again let me state clearly that I don’t mind admitting that the church messes it up regularly. And there is validity to the “forgive my family” argument. However, just because my father was an alcoholic doesn’t mean I am guilty of alcoholism. We’re just perpetrating the JAMES attitude against our own when we do that. It’s wrong in both instances, and the world knows it. In fact, it makes things worse because if we can’t treat our own right, why would they think we would treat them right?

  And I’m not saying that I’m perfect. I’m more than willing to ‘fess up to my sins. But not being perfect doesn’t make me JAMES, and the world recognizes that as well. At least the worldly people I spend a great deal of time with. Maybe I just live in an isolated corner?

• Brandon // December 23, 2008 at 2:52 pm

  Lucas, I agree that this all seems unfair. It is unfair, because the world is just as guilty. But, I can’t let the lack of equality in this situation stop me. Jesus didn’t, so I won’t, because I strive to be like Him, maybe not because God absolutely needs me to, but darn it, I WANT to. I do feel a responsibility to do my part to reconcile some perceptions that are false, and some of those false perceptions were brought about by members of the Church (worldwide, throughout history).

  This is not owning their sin as my own. But it is apologizing on “the family’s” behalf. One way or the other, that person needs to forgive my family, whether or not I’m the one with that particular problem.

  For me, asking for “JAMES” is a greater testament of what the church is. It’s not talking someone down, not attacking the church. I actually find the idea of saying, “That person obviously doesn’t get Christ, isn’t with me” more damaging, because isn’t this all about grace? Or can you easily fall out of His favor by saying something stupid or having a bad attitude towards someone?

  I fight not to be JAMES every day. It doesn’t mean sometimes I don’t slip up. But that’s me. Regardless, I too have “worldly” friends who see a difference in me than those that they’ve been hurt by. I just want to make sure that those who’ve hurt them ARE saved, ARE part of what I’m a part of, that they are in process too, as I am.

  Does that make sense?

• Brandon // December 23, 2008 at 2:54 pm

  Doh, obviously not, because I typo’d the crap out of that post.

  That last bit should read…

  Regardless, I too have “worldly” friends who see a difference in me than those that they’ve been hurt by. I just want to make sure those friends know that those who’ve hurt them ARE saved, ARE part of what I’m a part of, that they are in process too, as I am.

• Brenna // December 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

  While I do believe that Tri very much carried a tone of ‘every Christian is James and so every Christian needs to repent of being James’ on Sunday, I don’t believe that is the heart of Please Forgive James. I think Tri just got really excited about it – as he always does, when God’s been working on him – and poured into the sermon more of what God’s been convicting him of than leaving it more open to the Holy Spirit’s individual conviction.

  What Please Forgive James has been about as far as what God has revealed to me, is reminding us to take a good look at ourselves and how we are portraying God to the unbelievers. And it may not be the entire James acronym, either, though it was for me.

  I am in no way James enough to be turning people away from God as soon as they speak with me. But I am James enough to hinder my ability to love on people, as Jesus did. That is, I am completely unhindered to love on certain people, but others I stay away from. This isn’t self-abuse or anything like that. I’m not bashing myself. I’m just being honest with what God has shown me – and He’s given me examples of where I have been judgmental; antagonistic; mean-spirited; exclusive; and self-righteous.

  As I’ve said in other areas of this blog, I don’t believe we should be focused on changing the church image. Instead, we should be focused on changing the parts of James that can be found inside of ourselves. And if there is none of those to be found in us, then we need to be focused on maintaining that lack of James, and keeping ourselves from getting proud that we aren’t James.

• Brandon // December 23, 2008 at 3:02 pm

  Brenna,

  Ditto and done. You said what I’ve been stumbling to say perfectly.

• D // December 23, 2008 at 3:45 pm

  Man this was such a challenging and well thought out series. Thanks Tri and Vineyard staff…I know that what it has challenged me to do is chase after God harder in terms of prayer and reading scripture. It has challenged me to want to get away from people and tv and movies and spend time alone with God so I can hear his voice. That is where this quote also from Jonah, 2:8 nails me hard: “Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs” I think it is only by being filled with God and his truth and grace can we know what to bring to the world and our friends and that will vary tremendously from situation to situation. When I go to share how filled am I with God or how filled am I with the world? Am I filled with God or do I just have some kind of agenda… I have a friend who just lost a family member and I am trying to gently share God’s tenderness and compassion with them. But as I read the references above to Jonah warning Ninevah, I do also think there is a time and place to warn people about the holy wrath that is to come. That is where the discernment and guidence of the Holy Spirit is so important . I know I have hurt people by being JAMES, probably many more then I realize. I have also hurt people by being a coward and not sharing the slicing truth of the word of God. So while I think that this was an important series we should not live in a constant state of apology. We should be aware and address the things of JAMES as we need to but we should be standing on the truth of God and worry FIRST about being pleasing to HIM and not the world. If we are pleasing to Christ and the world hates us, so be it!…

• D // December 23, 2008 at 3:57 pm

  Lucas,
  A guy just handed me Imitating Christ by Kempis last week, that’s weird you dropped the name because I had never heard of him and now twice in one week he came up. I plan to read over Christmas!…D

• Marcus // December 23, 2008 at 5:18 pm

  This was just sent to me by a friend. It is short and I would like to share it. Heaven is a world filled with True Love, where all breathe True Love. Its Life throbs with Love , everywhere and all the time. The citezens of Heaven are all linked together through their common bond of God’s lineage. There , the whole world and all its people are linked together in an inseparable relationship, like the cells in our bodies. True Love , the love that is God’s essence , is heaven’s only governing power.

• Shirley // December 23, 2008 at 5:35 pm

  I was convicted by Tri’s sermon Sunday and want to apologize for times when I have been Judgmental, Antagonistic, Mean-spirited, Exclusive or Self-Righteous. I have asked God to cleanse my life and make me a person who is, instead, Joyful, Authentic, Meek (humble), Empathetic and Sensitive to others!! Will you join me?

• Marcus // December 23, 2008 at 11:18 pm

  Yes Shirley.

• Patrick // December 24, 2008 at 10:01 am

  I absolutely walked away Sunday having heard you (meaning me) are J.A.M.E.S. and that I need to apologize to every non believer for the perception they have of the church weather legitimate or not.
  I’m sorry but i agree almost entirely with Lucas and LaWayne. I did not leave sunday service motivated to reach out to anyone. I felt as if I had been scolded by a parent or teacher for having been doing what I though I should do based on 225 years of following God, studying His word, and praying for opportunities to share about how Jesus has changed my life. I am not saying I am without sin, but not one of those attributes resonated with me. I have made my apologies for the aggressive way I used to share Christ with friends and family even when my motives were pure.
  I can and do feel sorrow for the mistreatment of so many by the church at times, but to say I need to “apologize” as if it is my fault. To acknowledge sorrow is a very different thing than to confess an act for which we bare guilt responsibility.
  Let’s say you the reader are hurt by someone. I come to you and apologize and ask forgiveness for the one who mistreated you, is the relationship restored, has the offending party acknowledged the wrong? I think it better to say that the J.A.M.E.S. characteristics that those wronged have experienced do not represent the heart or grace of God, and to share what sorrow we have that the offended one was not shown the genuine love of God.
  But that is not what I heard Tri saying on Sunday. And as Brenna said if this is not what Tri meant then I think we need to hear from him. This message was obviously not communicated clearly because there does not seam to be unity over it’s meaning or application. WILL THE PASTORAL STAFF PLEASE RESPOND TO THE REQUESTS FOR CLARIFICATION. You silence is defining.

• Patrick // December 24, 2008 at 10:02 am

  That’s 25 years.

• LaWayne // December 24, 2008 at 10:08 am

  I am discouraged to see JAMES being defined as temptation. Even Jesus was tempted in all points, just like we are, but I don’t think any of us would have the courage to call him a JAMES.

  I am also discouraged to see JAMES defined as stumbling, as we all do. If the only way we can keep from being JAMES is by perfection, then we may as well give up. Only Jesus could hit that standard.

  Maybe we’re in disagreement because we haven’t defined the terms clearly. We should not confuse the daily struggle we face to put the old man to death with a heart/character issue. If I stumble in my Christian walk, does that make me a sinner? On a superficial level, yes, because I sinned, and that’s what sinners do. But on a deeper level, no, because I am a child of God.

  I understood JAMES to be more of the heart issue which will affect our actions and words. I’ve known a few JAMES’s in my lifetime, and believe me, you know who they are in a very short period of time. I’ve also known people with good and honest hearts, who love the Lord more than life itself, and when a JAMES-type of behavior comes from them, it just doesn’t fit with who they are. Does that mean they have become JAMES?

  See, the world recognizes that. Sure, if my first interaction with someone is JAMES, I have a lot of living and confessing to do before they will accept that it’s not who I am. But when people have known me for a long time, and in a weak moment I slip into a JAMES attitude, my non-believing friends say, “This isn’t like you. What’s up?” Then my apology carries meaning, and a door opens to discuss what being a Christian really means.

  What I heard on Sunday (during the first service, which I attend) is that we are all JAMES, no exceptions. I have been told that Tri tempered his message a little bit second service as that was not what he had intended to express. He wasn’t being JAMES in over-stating the case; he was being human.

  Let me apologize to any of you who have heard my passion as a JAMES attitude. Although not perfect, the Boise Vineyard is a wonderful church, and I can’t imagine being anywhere else. The good-hearted people here are a major reason why.

• Grace Gambrell // December 24, 2008 at 10:37 am

  Sorry, like to give credit where credit is due… But I’ve gotten lost in all the posts and can’t remember who suggested it. One blogger wrote she thought about going to her friends/co-workers, etc (forgive me if I’m mis-quoting you!) and ask if they saw any J.A.M.E.S. in her. I thought this was brilliant. Just the thought of asking my non-believing friends, family, co-workers (and my believing community for that matter!) if they have seen any of these things in me brings me to tears! And yet I feel the need to ask. Just pondering the asking of the question has revealed to me some people I KNOW I need to go apologize to! Thanks for the challenge. It is painful but necessary for growth.

  Here’s where I’m going to be very vulnerable. Several years ago during a difficult time in my life, I was listening to a Michael Card song which was just piano. I wept; as I closed my eyes, I saw myself holding my own wounded and bleeding heart.

  I was standing at the shore of the sea and felt God tell me to place my heart, with all its laceration into the salt water. “NO!” I cried out. I anticipated how painful that would be. The song continued and I felt God’s gentle, loving, protective, but strong leading. “Okay, Lord…” So, I did. And I could tell it WAS so painful, just as I had thought. But He let me know it was necessary for my healing; without which I wouldn’t survive.

  Years later, a friend was going through a hard time and I felt I was supposed to share this vision w/ her. I was confused and inside was telling the Lord why it didn’t really make sense and reminding Him that I didn’t ever get to see the “end” of it or how everything turned out, so it probably wouldn’t be too helpful to her. He nudged, and I hesitantly gave in.

  But it was at the very moment I was telling her this, that the Lord revealed to me that the sea was an ocean of HIS tears. That it was necessary for me to immerse my wounds into HIS pain. And though this certainly did cause more temporary pain, it also brought healing. Not only that, but it was my ONLY chance to heal. Believe me, if there was another way, I think He would have shown me.

  How painful for God to see His Son suffer; and how painful for Jesus to be immersed in His Father’s pain. And yet, our Father feels this depth of suffering in His heart for each of us.

  May you all know His arm is mighty to save because His own arm has been pierced. And Your heart can heal because of His own tears!
  Grace

• Lucas // December 24, 2008 at 11:10 am

  Very poetic Grace, thank you for the inspiring heart-filled sentiments.
  I think LeWayne and our ilk are cooling off a bit. What I must hold to as a Vineyardite is the idea that was initially nurtured in me by the Vineyard. This idea is that anyone, let me repeat, ANYONE can be a disciple of Christ. The Vineyard used to be primarily concerned with equipping Anyone (not James) even the most terribly broken to do the stuff.
  When we focus on stamping out Pharaseeism, curbing JAMES, I shudder to think we’ve turned a corner.
  If our goal is to focus on the sacrament of Confession, right on! I’d love that. I yearn deeply for confession. Do we not focus on confession to men, because we are worried about JAMES? I would venture to say I am, and then I miss the benefit of accountability.
  Perhaps, we are touching on some deep and salient wounds here.
  TO D: I’d like to study Imitation of Christ with you D, if you like. I haven’t finished it, yet.

• Farel // December 24, 2008 at 4:18 pm

  I am one of the “handful of Christians” (according to Jason the techno person) disturbed by the visual of my pastor chasing down Arianna Huffington in an airport. The description of her graciousness in the message Sunday contrasted sharply with the JAMES Christians. I am sure these far left haters and far left eco-terrorists are loving these apologies from Evangelical Christians. Anybody at Vineyard who does not know who Ms. Huffington is or what stands for should look into it. Perhaps the gosepel has not been explained on the Huffington Post or if it has some self-righteous, etc. Christian has ruined it for them. I think there may be other reasons they have not accepted Christ as Lord and Savior but that is up the Holy Spirit to sort out. As for me, I will try to do my reasonable best to serve God and care for the planet as long as he leaves me here.

• BoiseNoise // December 25, 2008 at 1:13 am

  Frankly, I just find this whole message discouraging and confusing. Please bear with me while I give just one example:

  This Friday, my son’s psychology class at Boise High spent the whole class period watching “Zeitgeist,” a ridiculous bit of anti-Christian (and anti-history!) movie that claims that Jesus was not a real person . . . at all . . . and that Christianity was actually plagiarized from the Egyptian’s worship of Horus, who supposedly had all kinds of similarities to the “mythical” Jesus (e.g. was born of a virgin, came to save mankind, was greeted by three constellations called the Wise Men, etc.)

  Of course, it only takes a few minutes of research to expose the whole movie as trumped-up ignorance that would be skewered in an instant by any historian . . . yet my son’s entire class had this stuff presented to them as if it were some special truth that had been deliberately hidden from them by some sort of Christian conspiracy.

  Okay, flash back to JAMES, and here’s where this ties in. I’m livid about the school incident. It’s WRONG for my son . . . and his classmates, who have mostly already been raised to disdain and mock Christianity . . . to have spent valuable classroom time on THIS. So . . . do I complain to the teacher and/or school, and be perceived as antagonistic, judgmental, and mean-spirited? Or sit by and say nothing, while this teacher no doubt is allowed to continue this type of travesty, year after year, funded by my taxes? It looks to me as if a Christian is (figuratively . . . thank the Lord, not literally!) “damned if I do, and damned if I don’t”!

  I am sure all of you are familiar enough with Christ’s behavior in Scripture to know that he had no qualms whatsoever about confronting false teachings. Yet, I know, He was Christ, so somehow if I do it, it’s wrong and judgmental? Yet, as a Christian . . . and therefore a follower of Christ . . . shouldn’t I be asking myself what Christ would do in a similar situation?

  To change the subject just a bit . . . I’m not sure Tri actually has the right to apologize on my behalf in the Huffington Post. I know it really doesn’t hurt me, but, I don’t know, it’s kind of creepy, like knowing that my Mormon relatives will probably baptize me into Mormonism (by proxy) after I have died. I totally agree that the church (universally) has not made stewardship of the earth as high a priority as it should have, and I don’t mind, actually, apologizing for that. What makes me uncomfortable is that Tri seems to have whole-heartedly accepted the global-warming-is-descending-on-us-based-on-our-naughty-behavior theory . . . and this is just that, a theory, with an unmistakably significant number of credible scientists disagreeing on the specific causes of global warming, and even on whether warming (and cooling) are part of a natural cycle. Therefore, if Tri is apologizing to people for MY part in creating global warming . . . well, I’m just really not comfortable with that!

• Matt Gambrell // December 25, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  Take the red pill people!

• Lucas // December 26, 2008 at 11:39 am

  What about the blue pill? I feel alone, like I’m the only one that took the blue pill.
  This is not an issue of which theory we’ve ingested, Matt. These are fundamental questions.
  And, although I think debate is great, I also happen to know, being from a Mennonite tradition, that “healthy” debate even as a matter of course is often quite spiritually damaging. I know a few Mennonites that left the church for this reason alone. Debate can stir up latent strife that is needless and hurts the weak of faith.
  Thought I’d throw that out there, since I put the first dissenting vote in the basket.

• Matt // December 26, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  Lucas,
  I’m shocked…you seem more like a red guy to me.

• Mike // December 26, 2008 at 7:26 pm

  Now that I know and finally made time to sit and read over the cool essays, I am encouraged by all I’ve read. I love this forum and it is an adventure to see so many of us actively blogging.

  Over all I’ve experienced the spirit of the messages and conversations of Please Forgive James to be right on.

  Because Jesus has given me the tremendous confidence and self-assurance that comes from my new life in him I try to, if I’m perceived as antagonistic, meanspirited, exclusive, or self-righteous, to move a position and say I’m sorry. I love forgiveness. I am not too arrogant to act and think like I am always right.

  I don’t think Tris’ message was for me to indict, self deflate, or cower. I’ve never known the Spirit to be anything less than strong, forgiving, compassionate, uplifting and powerful. I know Tri to be the same kind of man. I think the message is to not stop being friends with the world around me. I don’t think the truth is compromised by showing love and humility. If I can engage with the world on the environment, starvation, trafficking, homosexuality, socio-economics and family life, and in the Huntington Press I will. If to engage in this arena means asking forgiveness I will. It seems a small price to ask to start developing a credible track record in areas that we as Christians can bring truth and life and love. The fact is we haven’t had a great track record in every area. The fact is neither has the world.

  Personally, on a daily basis I experience by far more judgmental, antagonistic, meanspirited, exclusive, and self-righteous attitudes from outside the church than I have from the long list of Christians I admire, love and respect. If that weren’t true, Jesus didn’t need to die.

  My position is, I wasn’t born seeking the kingdom of God so I know how the old man,”the world” thinks. He can twist and manipulate with a self-serving agenda all day long. I see it happen all day long. The difference for me is my heart does break for the world around me who is fighting a losing battle. If all it takes for me to start sowing kingdom seeds is to take off an exclusive, meanspirited perceived James mask and replace that mask with forgiveness I’ll do it.

  I’m in no danger of losing my masculinity or strength and compassion, it comes from the love and joy of Jesus. My strength is eternal.

  I know how weak the world symbolizes the kingdom of God to be. The truth is the world, the environment, and relationships are broken. Christs heart broke for me, and he died for me and brought forgiveness and salvation. It’s pretty easy to see the example he set. I don’t always achieve the level of friendliness and friendship I want. But the creator is my example and I have the Holy Spirit not to flaunt my life and power, but to learn to use it for his kingdom as he does for me. He meets me right where I am.

  Please Forgive James is the Romans 12 message and it is a sober judgment of our accountability, our faith, love, and compassion.

• Matt Gambrell // December 26, 2008 at 8:17 pm

  Amen Mike!

• Krista // December 28, 2008 at 5:47 pm

  I have to say that I am feeling a bit out of the loop.. I am out of the country working and missed the last sermon! I keep waiting for it to get posted but a week has gone by with no sermon. It sounds like everyone has a bit of a different interpretation of whatever Tri said. Can anyone give me a non biased version?

• katie // December 30, 2008 at 1:18 pm

  you want to know what i struggle with? of course you do… i struggle, very often with the J.A.M.E.S that is in my heart every stinking day. but i struggle with that critical spirit in church, a lot – and poor Tri who has all these different people to teach, to reach out to, all these minds and hearts and voices VOICES! sitting in their chairs with their measures and weights out, judging everything he says.

  i’ve done it! what i’m trying to see is – OK LORD, what is the meat you want ME to take away from this, what are the bones that you want ME to leave? i’m trying. it’s so easy to criticize. where i am put off or offended, LORD, show me what you would change in my own heart – and if it’s something huge – so be it. if it’s nothing, so be it! but let me be willing.
  just willing.

  that said, i wonder at all this animosity – the Bible is pretty clear, that smart God of ours hems us in – if we are hurt by someone we are supposed to go to them – and if we know we have hurt someone we are supposed to go to them – no loopholes. the impetus is on us all the time. individually.

  so my question is this – where have you been offended? where have you been deeply hurt, perhaps by the vineyard even, perhaps by Tri, even. maybe now is the time to say “ouch, that really hurt” to the people who have hurt us.

  i wonder, there was a whole slew of people at church on sunday who were there for baby dedications, who were there and left before the blanket apologies… people who have left this congregation hurting and angry – is there room for each of us, from the Head Pastor to the Bookstore Guy to the Janitor to the Person in the Pew, (so to speak) to simply take this message personally and ask forgiveness from or apologize to those among us whom we have wounded? leaving all of the whole “big Church” apology stuff aside, will we be big enough to take this message personally in a good way and seek out those with whom we have broken relationship and be the first to apologize?

  or shall we just sit back and wait for the other guy to go first?

• katie // December 30, 2008 at 3:37 pm

  and by “we”, I, of course, mean myself first!

• D // December 30, 2008 at 5:51 pm

  Hey Boise Noise: I would be furious if that bogus Horace video was shown to my kids as any kind of legit journalism. You should be angry! It is not Christlike to tolerate that garbage. If you decide you want to go talk to teacher or principal, I’ll go with you if you want support. Anyone else?
  Lucas: I would love to get together and look at Kempis!

  All: I just read the Please Forgive article from Tri on the Huffington Post. Was this whole thing about how we need forgiveness because we don’t recycle and clean the river like we should?…or was that a seperate Please Forgive Us issue?..Anyways, please forgive me if any of my comments were taken the wrong way..May we spread His love with a humble heart by sharing the good news of the forgiveness of sins. Peace to you all….D,signing off.

• Matt // December 31, 2008 at 9:29 am

  Awesome word Katie. Thanks Tri for putting up with all the different voices and judgements….especially mine. You are in a difficult spot many times and I appreciate you and how you handle everything with grace.

  Matt

• LaWayne // December 31, 2008 at 5:13 pm

  Overheard an interesting thing yesterday morning at work. My boss, who happens to be Mormon, had a neighbor who had family in town for the holidays, but didn’t have enough bedrooms for everyone. Asked my boss if he would be kind enough to allow one of the family members and his fiancee use one of his bedrooms during their stay. Now here’s the rub. If he holds consistent to his beliefs, he has to decline. But then his neighbor would view him as JAMES. However, if he bends over backward to not be perceived as JAMES (and we’ve already determined that perception is reality), then he has to compromise his beliefs.

  My boss chose to hold his ground and live by his beliefs. I know the man well enough to know that he was firm and polite about the matter. However, are we saying that now he needs to apologize for being so judgmental, antagonistic, mean-spirited, exclusive and self-righteous because he would not allow the neighbor’s unmarried relatives to share a bed in his own house? Because that is EXACTLY how the world perceives us when we stand firm to truth, and that is EXACTLY what Jesus said we can expect from the world when we do.

  Funny isn’t it, how Jesus responded to being called demon-possessed by the Jewish leaders. No apologies, but a pretty harsh, judgmental, antagonistic, mean-spirited, exclusive, self-righteous response (at least as perceived by those leaders).

• LaWayne // December 31, 2008 at 5:26 pm

  I don’t think it’s right to require me to ask forgiveness for politely but firmly holding to my beliefs, no matter how much the world dislikes it. I haven’t seen anything on this blog or in the Word that would indicate that was what God had in mind.

  And to just assume that I’m living in a JAMES manner because the world doesn’t like the choices I make, characterizes the very JAMES attitude that Tri has been speaking about.

• Mike // January 1, 2009 at 12:18 pm

  I don’t know I would assume the neighbor saw your boss in that light. Your boss, living by his beliefs , perhaps brought some kingdom perspective to the situation. Regardless if the neighbor did see him as mean-spirited, self-righteous ,antagonistic or exclusive doesn’t mean it is the end of the line in the relationship between the two. Possibly the boss acted out of truth and humility with the screen door propped open for friendship.

  I don’t see JAMES as the gospel or the law. I’m influenced by it as an attitude with the potential for open discussion.

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